Battery Capacity

[Casper]

With the recent news about bigger battery capacities on new BMWs ZOEs and LEAFs due to increased efficiencies should'nt we hearing something from Mitsubishi soon. They are missing a trick in not taking full advantage of their unique PHEV Chadamo outlet. Just got a bill of £0.90 from CYC for use of their rapid at York designer outlets for only 6.36 kWh drawn which used the standard 80% cut off. The dash was showing no EV miles range left and empty battery icon although presumably it had the unavailable 30% reserve.
There are loads of EV drivers who have said they need a basic 50/60 miles EV range before they would consider an outlander so there is a market for a bigger capacity battery and basically there seems little point in having the rapid charge facility with the present battery size particularly when you pay to charge. Also with the 20-25% projected battery degradation what are the prospects of a replacement 20kwh'ish battery upgrade for existing users.

 

[greendwarf]

With the recent news about bigger battery capacities on new BMWs ZOEs and LEAFs due to increased efficiencies should'nt we hearing something from Mitsubishi soon.

Not really, the pure EVs still have the "range anxiety" problem which limits them to the 2nd car market. So they need all the help they can get from extra battery capacity. The almost unique selling point of the PHEV is that even when it runs out of battery it is still a generally acceptable petrol car, so can compete head on in the main 1st car market. I doubt even doubling the EV range would increase sales significantly and certainly not to fleet buyers.

 

[karl]

I doubt even doubling the EV range would increase sales significantly and certainly not to fleet buyers.

In my opinion, doubling the battery capacity would reach the optimum balance. I would be able to do 99 % of my trips on electricity and there would be enough power to deliver 120kW without starting the engine.

Att that point it could probably be replaced with a smaller and more efficient three cylinder range extender as the engine management would be easier and allow a more delicate construction. I have always wondered if not wankler engines would be ideal range extenders. But I a could understand if Mitsubishi wants to reduce complexity by adding the most robust engine they could.

But I agree. On paper and for cost- and tax efficiency the current battery size is probably slightly too large judging by the competition.

 

[greendwarf]

I doubt even doubling the EV range would increase sales significantly and certainly not to fleet buyers.

In my opinion, doubling the battery capacity would reach the optimum balance. I would be able to do 99 % of my trips on electricity and there would be enough power to deliver 120kW without starting the engine.

.

Or rather for your needs. There is always going to be someone in your position where just a bit more battery capacity will enable them to drive mostly in EV no matter how big the battery is. However Mitsu has to design for where the peak sales are and we know most city dwellers are only doing short daily trips. The real limitation for this market is not the range but the lack of ability to charge overnight with dedicated off-street parking spaces at a premium.

In the suburbs and beyond where commuter journeys are longer they also are more likely to have the space for off-street parking and a 2nd car, so that a pure EV rather than a hybrid is a more realistic option. As I've stated before, the PHEV is for Chelsea Tractor drivers with a conscience who want to visit the countryside at weekends, anybody else is in a niche market of one.

HOWEVER - yesterday reminded me that my comments above only relate to cooler days, after I spent an hour in slow moving traffic in Sarf Lundun under full sun. I was glad that even with the A/C going full blast I would still have enough capacity to get to work & back in EV mode. So on hotter days the effective city range is well under 20 miles, as you are less likely to benefit from mains pre or slip-stream cooling.

 

[raymie]

I very seldom drive anywhere other than back and from work (80 miles) but to switch to an EV only car I would really not be comfortable unless the range was at least twice that, too much risk no matter the size of battery in running short if you cut it too tight, detours, delays, power cuts during charging etc all would cause issues.

I keep buying hybrids for the moment until eventually there is a 4x4 EV only with 200+ miles range that is affordable, but I think I have a while to wait yet.

 

[Casper]

I doubt even doubling the EV range would increase sales significantly and certainly not to fleet buyers.

In my opinion, doubling the battery capacity would reach the optimum balance. I would be able to do 99 % of my trips on electricity ..

Or rather for your needs. There is always going to be someone in your position where just a bit more battery capacity will enable them to drive mostly in EV no matter how big the battery is. However Mitsu has to design for where the peak...

According to official OLEV figures 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles so there is a massive market for a 50 mile range PHEV. You may right about fleet drivers but they are the problem giving Outlander drivers a bad name. The tax perk was meant to increase EV mileage and reduce emissions.
http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/showthread.php/17745-Outlander-a-menace-to-rapid-chargers?highlight=Outlander+menace

 

[ChrisMiller]

The other problem with increased battery capacity is the increased time to recharge. I wonder how you're expected to recharge a Tesla's (up to) 90kWh battery? It's all very well to say you can use the fast rechargers, but you've got to get there (and back) and then spend an hour or so waiting while recharging. And if your nearest recharger is 10 miles (or even more) away it's not very green and efficient, is it? Recharging using a domestic supply (I've no idea if that's even possible on a Tesla) would take about 48 hours.

 

[jaapv]

Well, if one can afford a Tesla, presumably the cost of a 32 Amps charging station plus wiring won't make much difference.

 

[Casper]

The other problem with increased battery capacity is the increased time to recharge. I wonder how you're expected to recharge a Tesla's (up to) 90kWh battery? It's all very well to say you can use the fast rechargers, but you've got to get there (and back) and then spend an hour or so waiting while recharging. And if your nearest recharger is 10 miles (or even more) away it's not very green and efficient, is it? Recharging using a domestic supply (I've no idea if that's even possible on a Tesla) would take about 48 hours.

But the issue is that Mitsubishi are delaying the opportunity to increase battery capacity to optimise recharging. It recharges fully overnight in less than 3 hours but we are asleep for 6. If you pushed its capacity up to 20 kWh it would just charge at faster rate on a rapid without taking much longer. An outlander with a 50 mile range would Allow most of its journeys in and around towns being EV with the option of long distance travel whenever needed. This wouldn't have to be an expensive upgrade because all of the other manufacturers are increasing battery capacity through increased efficiencies within the existing module size. I'm sure Mitsubishi are working on this also - they just don't want to impact current sales with an announcement.

 

[jaapv]

It would add to the weight of the car too - it is pretty heavy already.

 

[Casper]

It would add to the weight of the car too - it is pretty heavy already.

Maybe Nissan will show them how to avoid this.
http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/7644/nissan-agrees-to-take-34-stake-in-mitsubishi/

 

[maby]

A great deal would depend on the cost implications. The price of the current version is already pushing various breakpoints that determine running costs like tax. I'm not sure we have ever seen a definitive price for the current battery pack, but figures in the region of £5000 have been mentioned. That buys quite a lot of petrol, you know! We also do not have an good handle on the life expectancy of these batteries - we are hoping for ten years or better, but some here are seeing graphs and having early failures that might make us wonder - that extra £5000 would be difficult to recoup if the battery life were significantly less than 10 years.

I'm sure that we will see increases in EV range over the next few years, but probably as a result more of improvements in technology than as a result of installing additional batteries.

 

[Casper]

A great deal would depend on the cost implications...
I'm sure that we will see increases in EV range over the next few years, but probably as a result more of improvements in technology than as a result of installing additional batteries.

Nissan I understood increased the 24 kWh capacity to 30 kWh within the same battery pack size but by changing the cells and module arrangements with updated power management unit. The overall weight increase was relatively slight, about the weight of a small child. I suppose they could have an option of removing the 5th seat if this was an issue but basically we all load greater weight in our boot without worry. The LEAF 24 kWh new battery replacement was under £5k I think but I doubt this would be an extra cost on a new car.

 

[Coley53]

Hello, I'm new on here,just doing a bit research before possibly buying an Outlander PHEV, following various posts it would seem my driving needs could easily be met by the Outlander, 30/50 miles per day but with a couple of hours at home between each journey, but does recharging the Outlander for a couple of hours at the end of each journey and then putting it on recharge overnight damage the battery pack? and what is the battery guarantee? I know I could ask the dealer but I would rather ask people with first hand experience, ta.

 

[jaapv]

No, it will not damage the battery. In fact repeated partial charges are less harmful than full discharge/charge cycles on Li-Ion batteries.
AFAIK Mitsubishi claims the battery will be at least at 80% capacity after five years of use.

 

[greendwarf]

Hello, I'm new on here,just doing a bit research before possibly buying an Outlander PHEV, following various posts it would seem my driving needs could easily be met by the Outlander, 30/50 miles per day but with a couple of hours at home between each journey, but does recharging the Outlander for a couple of hours at the end of each journey and then putting it on recharge overnight damage the battery pack? and what is the battery guarantee? I know I could ask the dealer but I would rather ask people with first hand experience, ta.

Current UK warranty is 5 years for the car and 8 years (1000,000 miles) for the battery

 

[Coley53]

No, it will not damage the battery. In fact repeated partial charges are less harmful than full discharge/charge cycles on Li-Ion batteries.
AFAIK Mitsubishi claims the battery will be at least at 80% capacity after five years of use.

So I'm assuming that this 20% drop is factored in as normal usage and wouldn't be covered by the battery warranty?

 

[jaapv]

It is not given that it will be all of 20% and it is non-linear.

 

[greendwarf]

No, it will not damage the battery. In fact repeated partial charges are less harmful than full discharge/charge cycles on Li-Ion batteries.
AFAIK Mitsubishi claims the battery will be at least at 80% capacity after five years of use.

So I'm assuming that this 20% drop is factored in as normal usage and wouldn't be covered by the battery warranty?

Warranties never cover normal wear & tear

 

[anko]

AFAIK Mitsubishi claims the battery will be at least at 80% capacity after five years of use.

As far as I know, they only say "they expect it to be ...". IMHO, that is not the same as "guarantee it to be ...". I have never seen a single statement in which Mitsu declares at what % they will fix / replace it under warranty.