Who is ready to adjust the Phev to get EV only mode?

[anko]

Electric motors are capable of maximum torque from practically zero revs and I would like to be able to exploit this a little

Very O(pposite)T. :mrgreen:
Why would you think you cannot benefit from maximum torque from standstill? As long as you are below 28 km/h, power consumption at max torque is below 60 kW (which can and will be supplied by the battery alone).

 

[anko]

To be one honest, I am not concerned with the ICE starting when you floor the pedal. Simply don't floor it if you don't want to start the engine. You are fully in control to get the behaviour you want without extra mode. With the heater, it is different. You cannot get the same behaviour without a button or mode.

That being said, as far as I can understand it is the AirCon ECU (yes, the little panel that you use to control your AirCon + the electronics inside the panel) that tells the engine to start under specific circumstances (different sensors + temp setting). All we need is reprogramming of that little ECU so it doesn't tell the engine to start anymore. If only this was analog stuff, we could most probably cut a single wire and be done with it. No impact on engine, generator, fuel sensors, no reduced power when you need it. And if you do want to use the engine for heating, simply hit Charge mode.

Unfortunately, this signal will (most likely) go via CANBUS. Don't want to cut CANBUS wires :evil: .

 

[Trex]

Hi,

Just wow

When the word illegal starts getting thrown around about patent and copyright issues well that definitely does really surprise me. But I think it might be my fault for using the word "hack" which brings with it negative connotations. I will edit that word out now from all my posts. But I think maby has covered that particular issue well enough.

I was going to wade through all the negative posts ie warranty, MOT and EU rules etc but instead I will just say this:

Yes there are warranty issues. But the car will not be under warranty forever and maybe we are getting our knowledge ready for when the Phev is out of warranty so we can then improve it. Or maybe we are able to work around it (the warranty).

Yes maybe even EU or MOT or our ADR rules are issues but when I said in the 2nd post :

2. Knowledge and equipment of how to achieve that goal. This can sometimes mean trial and error but a thorough testing of results.

"a thorough testing of results" is meant to cover those problems ie so we do not break the rules or hurt someone or ourselves . That could mean some of our wanted improvements we may not be able to do ourselves but we can discuss these so we can decide what we can improve on the Phev safely and not break the rules.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Hi,

Getting some interesting replies already, thanks. Will try to make a more considered reply tomorrow. Getting too tired to think clearly.

But another maybe another simple way of keeping the petrol motor off would be a removable restrictor on the accelerator pedal, would have to be secure, but that would not help the electric heater problem.

Catch you tomorrow.

Regards Trex.

And would be bloddy dangerous, and illegal, as it would prevent the car from supplying full power without technical need, which would make you liable in any accident.

Hi jaapv,

I will definitely reply to this one . This same argument was brought up by maby before you posted and I wrote:

Maby, that restrictor could have a soft or gated stop ie press down hard and still have full power.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Are you proposing to patch the firmware? That seems very unlikely to be successful, and has significant risk of disabling your car, unless you have access to the source code from Mitsubishi.

P.S. I do have experience programming the microcontrollers that are commonly used in automotive applications, so I have access to the necessary kit. There will be several (probably quite a large number) in the PHEV, so the first problem (in the absence of a schematic) will be identifying which controls the power flow. If Mitsu are not prepared to let us have the source code for the programs, then we would have to try to reverse engineer it. How successful we would be with that depends on the lengths to which they have gone to stop us - often manufacturers will lock down the microcontrollers in order to protect their trade secrets.

I'm not sure if it would be feasible to reverse engineer and reprogram over the CAN bus. It is more common to reprogram microcontrollers via the ICP (In-circuit Programming) port on the device - that will require gaining physical access to the controller.

If you can gain access to the necessary information, I would be interested in getting involved - I do have a lot of the IT knowledge to do it. As you know, my interest is not in an EV mode, but I would like to see a "Prius mode" for long trips away from home. But I certainly would not want to be the guinea pig - far too much scope for a totally dead car!

Hi maby,

The thing I will do is bring this Canbus schematic into this thread:


This was supplied to me by anko and it shows the basics of the Canbus layout. It is in the sticky thread in this section ie Technical discussions.

Have you done programming over the Canbus or network? Do you know about Canbus sniffing or listening for the required addresses and packets of data. Once we find the required data it would need to be written into the Canbus and I have done that before (but someone else found the addresses) with a plain old ScanGauge on the Prius (stop reversing beeps in cabin). As I said before we may need access to a MUT-III for the Phev. Not sure yet.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

I am always up for a bit of hacking - personally I would like to allow more torque from a standing start (for those tricky moments when you REALLY wish you had another inch of pedal movement while a London taxi threatens to T-Bone you :twisted I'm not talking about getting enough power to take on the drag cars at Santa Pod - just changing the power curve to make things safer. Electric motors are capable of maximum torque from practically zero revs and I would like to be able to exploit this a little

I like your attitude Razman and you always make me laugh. :lol:

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

If you can anticipate and switch to charge you'll find the car much more responsive, as the ICE will not have to start to deliver full power.

I completely agree and the 'Phevrolet' becomes quite nippy when using Charge mode like this.

Now, if only I can ask the London taxi drivers to be a bit more predictable my problem will be solved :lol:

Another classic. :lol: :lol:

 

[Trex]

To be one honest, I am not concerned with the ICE starting when you floor the pedal. Simply don't floor it if you don't want to start the engine. You are fully in control to get the behaviour you want without extra mode.

Hi anko,

Like I wrote in the first post :

"ps By watching the power gauge and 11 months of ownership of the Phev I can nearly always stay in ev mode but it can be bloody annoying having to worry about it."

What I hate is watching my wife and sons accidently do it when they are driving or they in a hurry. Grrrrr. :roll:

Regards Trex.

 

[jaapv]

Yes there are warranty issues. But the car will not be under warranty forever and maybe we are getting our knowledge ready for when the Phev is out of warranty so we can then improve it.

Well, in that case you have five years to work this out....

 

[Trex]

With the heater, it is different. You cannot get the same behaviour without a button or mode.

That being said, as far as I can understand it is the AirCon ECU (yes, the little panel that you use to control your AirCon + the electronics inside the panel) that tells the engine to start under specific circumstances (different sensors + temp setting). All we need is reprogramming of that little ECU so it doesn't tell the engine to start anymore. If only this was analog stuff, we could most probably cut a single wire and be done with it. No impact on engine, generator, fuel sensors, no reduced power when you need it. And if you do want to use the engine for heating, simply hit Charge mode.

Unfortunately, this signal will (most likely) go via CANBUS. Don't want to cut CANBUS wires :evil: .

anko now we can get down to the nitty gritty.

Like I wrote in post 2 of this thread:" 1. A defined goal ie EV only mode."

I should have said 1. A defined goal ie EV only mode or what ever we decide we want to improve.

Let us assume we try to fix this problem first. ie stop the petrol motor starting in the colder climates when the Phev has a electric heater. It is probably the easier of our wanted improvements and we have to start somewhere. MOT, EU and ADR might not even care. :lol:

So the first thing we can do is bring in the diagram you gave me that I posted in the sticky



Now underneath I wrote:

"For people in cold climates (I have a electric heater and for me in northern NSW Australia I have never had the engine start in winter when heating) I think it says underneath this image that about 10 C or more difference between the setting of the climate control and temp of the interior starts the petrol motor.

Now if you could just cut that control signal from heater control assembly to the petrol motor. Hmmm :lol:

It also says max output of electric heater is 4.25kw."

I was only joking when I said : "Now if you could just cut that control signal from heater control assembly to the petrol motor. Hmmm :lol:"
and most certainly yes that control signal will be on the Canbus .

So how do you stop this signal getting to the petrol motor. I would say by "fooling" the data packet at the address of the module that controls the heater control assembly which decides to start the petrol motor. Which on our Canbus schematic would be the A/C module on the SUB CAN-C network.

How do we find that address and data packet. By sniffing or listening to the Canbus when the actual event occurs ie petrol motor starting from cold temps.

Anyone else with any ideas on this improvement?

Regards Trex.

 

[karl]

While I'd like to force Ev only, I think Mitsubishi have a few reasons for starting thr ICE in cold conditions.

The heater draws a lot of curren. 15% or so of the available power.It could be solved by disabling the heater temporary when the load is high. That would mean no heat over certain speeds or certain conditions.

Cold starts. The ICE must be ready to start and provide full power immediately. Starting in cold conditions and the flooring it isn't exactly good for the engine, and it can happen frequently. I think they want a certain temperature in the engine minimally.

I think that Mitsubishi are reluctant to provide a mode with a significantly reduced available power and poor heating because they are worried about the cars image. And quite frankly, driving a 2 ton car with 60 kw available is not enough in many situations.

But ok, maybe i'd like to decide that on my own.

But I can imagine Clarksons review.

 

[jaapv]

Not much different from his current review, I imagine ...
He has been fired anyway :mrgreen:

 

[anko]

Cold starts. The ICE must be ready to start and provide full power immediately. Starting in cold conditions and the flooring it isn't exactly good for the engine, and it can happen frequently. I think they want a certain temperature in the engine minimally.

If that was the case, they would also start then engine when the heater was off. But they don't. So, this argument is not valid.

 

[Trex]

Yes there are warranty issues. But the car will not be under warranty forever and maybe we are getting our knowledge ready for when the Phev is out of warranty so we can then improve it.

Well, in that case you have five years to work this out....

Hi jaapv.

Well 4 years and 1 month. :lol: :lol:

Regards Trex.

 

[chasingamy]

Great idea and I have also been searching for a chip mod company who can make changes to my ECU.
Unless there is someone on the forum who does this for a living, I'll bet it is a pretty complicated hack to make.
The best solution is to start calling/emailing the chip tuners and asking for mods; this will eventually bring the economics to their minds and we will start getting well tested mods.
Ignore the "MOT, warranty and its illegal" worriers on the forum; if everyone thought like this we would still be driving horse drawn wagons. Innovators take chances with their eyes open, smart ones know the risks going in and sometimes, take them anyway.

 

[jaapv]

Okay, it is fine by me, and if you are prepared to pay for all repairs to a new car, there is no objection to experiment. But do remember that it is very difficult to modify this car on the sly. The logbooks are read out at every service and sent to the central database in Japan.

 

[PolishPilot]

While I'd like to force Ev only, I think Mitsubishi have a few reasons for starting thr ICE in cold conditions.

The heater draws a lot of curren. 15% or so of the available power.It could be solved by disabling the heater temporary when the load is high. That would mean no heat over certain speeds or certain conditions.

Your reasoning is flawed.
On short trips, up to 15-20 miles, there is enough power in the battery to cover both, the driving and heating demand.
The cost of heating the car and engine with fuel is 5 times the cost of heating just the car with electricity.

Cold starts. The ICE must be ready to start and provide full power immediately. Starting in cold conditions and the flooring it isn't exactly good for the engine, and it can happen frequently. I think they want a certain temperature in the engine minimally.

Flawed again. In pure EV mode the ICE shouldn't be started at all, hence no need for preheating.

I think that Mitsubishi are reluctant to provide a mode with a significantly reduced available power and poor heating because they are worried about the cars image. And quite frankly, driving a 2 ton car with 60 kw available is not enough in many situations.

The EV power is more than enough for city driving. You cannot accelerate more than the traffic around you.
You cannot drive faster than 35-40 mph, although 60kW is good enough for 75mph.

But ok, maybe i'd like to decide that on my own.

Here I can agree 100%

 

[karl]

While I'd like to force Ev only, I think Mitsubishi have a few reasons for starting thr ICE in cold conditions.

The heater draws a lot of current. 15% or so of the available power.It could be solved by disabling the heater temporary when the load is high. That would mean no heat over certain speeds or certain conditions.

Your reasoning is flawed.
On short trips, up to 15-20 miles, there is enough power in the battery to cover both, the driving and heating demand.

I am actually talking about power (kW) as opposed to energy (kWh) here. There may be enough ENERGY (kWh) to run 15-20 miles, and have the heater on, but not enough POWER (kW) to do both at a certain speed.

The power is related to how much current you can draw from the battery without damaging itm and it's capped at 60 kW. 60 kW is not much so there isn't much margin there. (Ie, no overtaking.)

In a hypothetical EV-mode; To get the full 60 kW to the motors, the heater/AC could be disabled automatically when the driving conditions demand more than 50-55 kW ( I think the AC draws more power than the heater?)
That probably means that at higher speeds, there won't be much heating or AC.

Many people could probably live with that though.

Flawed again. In pure EV mode the ICE shouldn't be started at all, hence no need for preheating.

I think that Mitsubishi are reluctant to provide a mode with a significantly reduced available power and poor heating because they are worried about the cars image. And quite frankly, driving a 2 ton car with 60 kw available is not enough in many situations.

Flawed or not, I just believe the reason for having the ICE on standby is that Mitsubishi probably are very afraid of delivering a car if there is any risk that a motor journalist will be freezing or
think that it's under-powered in any way (Even if specifically selected by the driver.) And the reason for that is probably the sad state of motor journalism, and the motor industry rather than anything else.



However: There is a simple but expensive solution to this.

Mitsubishi could double the battery capacity to 24 kWh in the next model and the car would be fantastic, since the available peak power in pure EV mode would then be 120 kW
(using the same battery type.) And that will be plenty, although it will take quite some time to charge it.

There is also a simple and inexpensive solution that could remove some annoyance: Add some haptic feedback to the pedal so it's possible for the driver to stay in EV-mode.

 

[chasingamy]

Another potential solution to running pure ev at the touch of a button without cycling the ICE would be a set of fairly small and not terribly expensive (compared to another 12KW of batteries) super capacitors. A small set of these could produce a short burst for 10-12 seconds for overtaking, when our foot gets a little heavy off the line or changing lanes. They could recharge from the batteries in a few seconds after use and be ready for the next surge in no time.

 

[chasingamy]

As brilliant as these cars are, having no way to restrict the ICE from starting when there is plenty of energy in the batteries is simply a flaw in design. An unfortunately serious one.