What's it like as a petrol car

[wilksphev]

I got the car primarily for the BIK. I need a bit car for work but didn't want to pay too much tax as personal use is not a huge benefit to me. With the Outlander PHEV I pay just £100 a month for the car a private fuel and don't have to worry about recording mileage.
I try to charge when possible but won't charge at home so it will not be that common. Currently I charge at a park and ride for free or try to find hotels with charging points.
On petrol alone, it is very comfortable to drive (although only do about 20k miles a year). More than powerful enough. And returns about 35-38 mpg in my hands at 70 mpg cruising.

 

[Driver5]

Dannyhusband and others...

This is regarding BIK... Over the weekend i have been doing a lot of man maths and finally compiled all the data i need.... while the Outlander is cheap on BIK at the moment, on a 4 year company car lease you need to take into account in year 2018/19 tax year and also 19/20 depending on delivery.

My figures are here -

MITSUBISHI OUTLANDER ESTATE 2.0 PHEV GX4h 5dr Auto 14 - With the Grey paint as an extra.

BIK & PUC figures below for me detailed on a PER MONTH basis.:-

2015 / 2016 2016 / 2017 2017 / 2018 2018/2019 2019/2020
£148.95 £174.55 £200.15 £251.35 XXX
5% 7% 9% 13% 16%

Total cost for 4 years excluding 2019/20
£9300.56

Excluding any cash allowance option you are also surrendering.

As you can see, while te BIK at the moment is peanuts, by contract end you will be paying a lot more per month

###############

Another good option im looking at is a MERCEDES C CLASS SALOON C350e Sport Premium 4dr Auto 15B - Better spec, bigger fuel tank, better spec, Overall cost - £10912.84 compared to the £9300.56 which includes a factory fitted towbar and far nicer interior and spec

So, what im saying, is the savings on year 1 and 2 are there, but these need to then be offset against a higher CO2 rate against a higher RRP price which could be £15k more than lets say a VW Passat Estate or Octivia vRS estate.

Overall on paper the Outlander is cheap, but just by a couple of grand over the 4 years.

The bit what is holding me back from a outlander is the smaller fuel tank and cabin. Everything else works......

 

[maby]

Dannyhusband and others...

This is regarding BIK... Over the weekend i have been doing a lot of man maths and finally compiled all the data i need.... while the Outlander is cheap on BIK at the moment, on a 4 year company car lease you need to take into account in year 2018/19 tax year and also 19/20 depending on delivery.

...

So, what im saying, is the savings on year 1 and 2 are there, but these need to then be offset against a higher CO2 rate against a higher RRP price which could be £15k more than lets say a VW Passat Estate or Octivia vRS estate.

.........

This is also all true and must be taken into account. In our case we own the company and bought the car out of cash reserves. We will run it as a company car for a couple of years, then sell it to ourselves - we are probably the only Outlander buyers hoping for massive depreciation since we will have to charge ourselves VAT on the transaction!

 

[user 816]

Dannyhusband and others...

This is regarding BIK... Over the weekend i have been doing a lot of man maths and finally compiled all the data i need.... while the Outlander is cheap on BIK at the moment, on a 4 year company car lease you need to take into account in year 2018/19 tax year and also 19/20 depending on delivery.

My figures are here -

MITSUBISHI OUTLANDER ESTATE 2.0 PHEV GX4h 5dr Auto 14 - With the Grey paint as an extra.

BIK & PUC figures below for me detailed on a PER MONTH basis.:-

2015 / 2016 2016 / 2017 2017 / 2018 2018/2019 2019/2020
£148.95 £174.55 £200.15 £251.35 £328.15
5% 7% 9% 13% 19%

Total cost for 4 years excluding 2019/20
£9300.56

Excluding any cash allowance option you are also surrendering.

As you can see, while te BIK at the moment is peanuts, by contract end you will be paying a lot more per month

###############

Another good option im looking at is a MERCEDES C CLASS SALOON C350e Sport Premium 4dr Auto 15B - Better spec, bigger fuel tank, better spec, Overall cost - £10912.84 compared to the £9300.56 which includes a factory fitted towbar and far nicer interior and spec

So, what im saying, is the savings on year 1 and 2 are there, but these need to then be offset against a higher CO2 rate against a higher RRP price which could be £15k more than lets say a VW Passat Estate or Octivia vRS estate.

Overall on paper the Outlander is cheap, but just by a couple of grand over the 4 years.

The bit what is holding me back from a outlander is the smaller fuel tank and cabin. Everything else works......

The problem with your calculation is your comparing an SUV with a 2WD Estate car! If your not set on a SUV I would be the first to agree there are tons of other serious options.

But try and find another similar sized and spec 4WD (not 2WD version) SUV and compare the costs and the Outlander is in another universe!

The cheapest I could find was a 1.6D Suzuki S-Cross with 4WD which was fun but just a cheap slightly jacked up hatchback, it was cheap because of low CO2 and tiny purchase price.
I was actually about to buy a Hyundai IX35 which has poor CO2 so high tax but offset by its decent list price and big discount making a very low PUC.
I dismissed the 4WD Qashqai as too small, the 4WD X-Trail as underpowered.
There is a new CR-V this year which people might be interested in, generally improved and with a 160bhp 1.6 twin turbo diesel and 4WD at a tax friendly 129g/km CO2. Good for a sizable car with 4WD!

 

[user 816]

It is shocking that BIK rates even for a sub 50g/km group car will in a few years be what it is for a typical mid range car today, even a zero output car! making keeping your tax bill down impossible.

Its annoying for me in that my employer previously ran an excellent scheme that avoided any BIK and made the choice of vehicle on CO2 basis irrelevant. Basically the car was leased by the employee so their 'own' car. The company reimbursed at the full approved AMAP rates taking advantage of the tax free nature so the left over cash above the actual fuel cost could be routed into the car lease payments, combined with a contribution from the employee similar to their usual company car tax contribution to the lease and a low interest loan for the down payment repayed on disposal of the vehicle.

It was a highly effective and legal scheme to beat the governments greed, give a free choice of vehicles with a set cost to the driver that could not change throughout the term. Apparently as cars had become so clean it was considered easier to go back to straight leasing, but look at where the BIK rates are going no matter how clean the car!!!

I object to paying a lot of money, especially tax for a vehicle which absolutely I need for my job, the company benefit from 90% of its use and I get a small amount of personal benefit from.

 

[zacherynuk]

Hell yeah.

Apples with apples please.

For me it was this or a Skoda Octavia estate 4x4. Or anything else has the grip and the load space for the money.

I am happy.

It is actually really good on the slippy and slopes - it won't often make a landrover look daft but I have surprised a few other marques on the nasty stuff in the past 6 months.

I'm up over a grand. on BIK alone.

 

[Driver5]

The problem with your calculation is your comparing an SUV with a 2WD Estate car! If your not set on a SUV I would be the first to agree there are tons of other serious options.

But try and find another similar sized and spec 4WD (not 2WD version) SUV and compare the costs and the Outlander is in another universe!

The cheapest I could find was a 1.6D Suzuki S-Cross with 4WD which was fun but just a cheap slightly jacked up hatchback, it was cheap because of low CO2 and tiny purchase price.
I was actually about to buy a Hyundai IX35 which has poor CO2 so high tax but offset by its decent list price and big discount making a very low PUC.
I dismissed the 4WD Qashqai as too small, the 4WD X-Trail as underpowered.
There is a new CR-V this year which people might be interested in, generally improved and with a 160bhp 1.6 twin turbo diesel and 4WD at a tax friendly 129g/km CO2. Good for a sizable car with 4WD!

For me its getting something which provides enough space, easy on the eye and quality. Im not focusing on just the SUV market so i am more than flexible with my choices,like the idea of a SUV with a young family but its not really required, Feels like im just playing the BIK saving game, want to go for a car with less emissions, but the goverment just realise they are losing money so just hike it up.

zacherynuk -

4x4 makes no difference to grip in the UK to me if its a 100% tarmac car, as long as the correct tyre choice is used. (im a BMW E60 owner who rotates summers and winter rubber.)

The Octy estate 4x4 is a good choice for list price v co2, but not a car for me in the offered trim - A Scout is a good option though...

Co2 below for anyone interested..

I agree, while i want to drive a lower emission car, in 3 years time there will be no cost advantages to do so based on the current cars on todays market.

 

[anko]

Little bit OT, but what does "5% BIK" comes down to? I assume it is 5% over the list value. But is this how much you have to pay in taxes? Or is this added to your taxable income? Yearly? And if so, how much tax do you pay over this 5%?

Just curious as non UK citizen

In the Netherlands, we get an addition to our taxable income of 7% of the list price of the Outlander (excluding dealer options and accessories), every year. Over this 7% addition we pay max. 52% income tax. Back in 2013 (when I got my PHEV) the addition was still 0%. For 2013 cars, the 0% addition applies for 5 years. After 5 years, it will be reevaluated, if I still own the car. For comparison, the highest addition is 25% of the list value. So, a EURO 40.000 Outlander Diesel would cost me about EURO 400 net, each month. The PHEV costs me EURO 0

 

[user 816]

Little bit OT, but what does "5% BIK" comes down to? I assume it is 5% over the list value. But is this how much you have to pay in taxes? Or is this added to your taxable income? Yearly? And if so, how much tax do you pay over this 5%?

Just curious as non UK citizen

In the Netherlands, we get an addition to our taxable income of 7% of the list price of the Outlander (excluding dealer options and accessories), every year. Over this 7% addition we pay max. 52% income tax. Back in 2013 (when I got my PHEV) the addition was still 0%. For 2013 cars, the 0% addition applies for 5 years. After 5 years, it will be reevaluated, if I still own the car. For comparison, the highest addition is 25% of the list value. So, a EURO 40.000 Outlander Diesel would cost me about EURO 400 net, each month. The PHEV costs me EURO 0

You are correct to a point. In the UK 5% of the list price of the car (including option if any) is added to your taxable income and taxed at either 20% or 40% (or a bit of both). The amount of tax increases each year you have the car as per the table printed above so you have to pick carefully looking ahead.

The PHEV4 is about £37000 here but the government currently pay £5000 for you. Unfortunately you are still taxed on the £37000 and not on £32000!

There is two more factors to consider here, firstly if you pay some money back to your employer for use of the vehicle privately (Private use contribution PUC) this is deductable from the BIK.
As the BIK is already low on a PHEV this factor can make the tax tiny!

Secondly, there is a certain amount you can earn and pay 20% tax, above that level any extra you earn is then taxed at 40%. For some people, a small BIK will not increase their income enough to pay any 40% tax so the PHEV keeps cheaper. Someone already paying tax at 40% obviously pays double for their PHEV.

 

[user 816]

For me its getting something which provides enough space, easy on the eye and quality. Im not focusing on just the SUV market so i am more than flexible with my choices,like the idea of a SUV with a young family but its not really required, Feels like im just playing the BIK saving game, want to go for a car with less emissions, but the goverment just realise they are losing money so just hike it up.

I agree, while i want to drive a lower emission car, in 3 years time there will be no cost advantages to do so based on the current cars on todays market.

I think you are being very honest and wise in your outlook to consider all the options. For me I am hooked on the SUV thing, it suits my back issue, I like the visibility, the boot is great for work and whilst global warming seems to have killed the snow lately, the nature of my work means sometimes I really have to get places for certain and a 4WD is the best chance of doing it.

I also agree in 3 years time many vehicles will be well below 100g/km and as the rates level out ultra low emission cars will become irrelevant here again. The good old company car driver who has to have a vehicle can be relied on to stump up cash for the government as usual, we have always been cash cows.

 

[Driver5]

For me its getting something which provides enough space, easy on the eye and quality. Im not focusing on just the SUV market so i am more than flexible with my choices,like the idea of a SUV with a young family but its not really required, Feels like im just playing the BIK saving game, want to go for a car with less emissions, but the goverment just realise they are losing money so just hike it up.

I agree, while i want to drive a lower emission car, in 3 years time there will be no cost advantages to do so based on the current cars on todays market.

I think you are being very honest and wise in your outlook to consider all the options. For me I am hooked on the SUV thing, it suits my back issue, I like the visibility, the boot is great for work and whilst global warming seems to have killed the snow lately, the nature of my work means sometimes I really have to get places for certain and a 4WD is the best chance of doing it.

I also agree in 3 years time many vehicles will be well below 100g/km and as the rates level out ultra low emission cars will become irrelevant here again. The good old company car driver who has to have a vehicle can be relied on to stump up cash for the government as usual, we have always been cash cows.

^^ LIKE - I had a SUV in the states, (the V8 was a peach to drive, - enjoyed the driving position, but thats a hire car.... more tricky when im having to decide long term.

I know we are going off topic slightly.... but in 3 years time there will be no financial interest as a company car driver to go green based on the agreed BIK. The EV / low emission benefits will of dissolved and it will be a RRP price challenge rather than CO2. The gap will of closed.

 

[Dannyhusband]

There is some good points been raised to take in to account here I'm actually more of a BMW fan but going back to my options to choose I can get a monedo insignia or Passat which I don't really like I can get a 1series but it's too small but I can get a BMW X1 sdrive sport which has the RWD fun but at the cost of nearly an extra £200 a month is a big difference on tax but still not my ideal car if you get what I mean and it's the 1st company car I'm getting and my main concern is the pay rise I've got could end up going on a car I dont like so end up costing me all or a big chunk ofmy pay rise

 

[greendwarf]

The good old company car driver who has to have a vehicle can be relied on to stump up cash for the government as usual, we have always been cash cows.

My heart bleeds for all you company car users. Although it is years since I had one, I don't remember feeling that it was a financial millstone round my neck. I got a brand new & better car than I would be able to afford, with no car tax or insurance to worry about, no matter how many claims I made (once dropped a filing cabinet onto the bonnet :lol: ) and the option to buy the car at end at a large discount.

AFAIK businesses still consider taxable perks such as this attractive to employees, otherwise they wouldn't offer them. Certainly you "cash cows" won't get any sympathy from us private owners.

 

[Olibol]

Don't you have an option to opt out Bob? Most people do, and for most it still makes sense to take the company option. Particularly when the government give you options like 5% BIK if you drive something with a plug. Hard to feel too sorry for ourselves isn't it?

 

[maby]

The good old company car driver who has to have a vehicle can be relied on to stump up cash for the government as usual, we have always been cash cows.

My heart bleeds for all you company car users. Although it is years since I had one, I don't remember feeling that it was a financial millstone round my neck. I got a brand new & better car than I would be able to afford, with no car tax or insurance to worry about, no matter how many claims I made (once dropped a filing cabinet onto the bonnet :lol: ) and the option to buy the car at end at a large discount.

AFAIK businesses still consider taxable perks such as this attractive to employees, otherwise they wouldn't offer them. Certainly you "cash cows" won't get any sympathy from us private owners.

The situation has changed a great deal in the last ten or twenty years. I had my first company car around thirty years ago and it was a real bonus - as you say, a new car with all running costs covered - mine included private mileage. These days, the tax penalty is much higher and for most cars, it is not at all clear that they are worth it. The Outlander stands out as one of the few desirable cars for which the tax penalty is really acceptable.

I'm not saying that the old rules were right - in many ways they were very wrong. I remember driving a 100 mile round trip once to save £5 on a new lens for my camera!

 

[user 816]

The good old company car driver who has to have a vehicle can be relied on to stump up cash for the government as usual, we have always been cash cows.

My heart bleeds for all you company car users. Although it is years since I had one, I don't remember feeling that it was a financial millstone round my neck. I got a brand new & better car than I would be able to afford, with no car tax or insurance to worry about, no matter how many claims I made (once dropped a filing cabinet onto the bonnet :lol: ) and the option to buy the car at end at a large discount.

AFAIK businesses still consider taxable perks such as this attractive to employees, otherwise they wouldn't offer them. Certainly you "cash cows" won't get any sympathy from us private owners.

actually I agree, to some degree.

We have two types of car users. The perk ones who do actual business miles once in a blue moon, drive to the company car park every morning, leave it sat there all day then drive the half an hour home in it at the end of the day so 90% private use. They get more choice and often a better grade allowance so contribute less to the cost anyway.

Then we have field staff that are doing 90%+ business miles, they need a vehicle to get equipment to our customers, its a tool kit/parts store on wheels effectively. Ultimately people can die if we don't keep our things going properly.
After a week on the road the last thing field people want to do is drive more so their vehicles get little private use.

Both are taxed the same.

The field staff have to pay more of their own money towards their vehicles because the mileage they put on them makes the lease much more expensive. They cannot opt out of them or take a cash alternative. 'Duty of care' paranoia has put an end to that as professional people are considered too stupid to run an adequately maintained vehicle themselves so must have a full maintenance lease car or resign.

Personally I would redesign the tax system to tax people on the real 'benefit in kind' by proportioning the tax charge between 'business use' which is not a benefit and 'private use' which very much is a benefit. I would feel a heck of a lot less aggrieved at paying it then.

 

[simonrh]

When my batteries are flat at the beginning of a journey I only seem to get 34mpg nominally if i am "keeping up with motorway traffic" at say 73-75MPH. With its tiddly tank you will be stoppign every 250-300 miles.

Start charging it up and doing some shorted journeys though and it only gets filled with fuel once in a blue moon.

 

[gwatpe]

The PHEV design means without modifications, the car trys to run as EV on power ON.

I have a mod on my PHEV :idea: that allows my car to run essentially as a petrol car on power ON. Since installing the mod, the dreaded empty battery early in a drive does not happen. My PHEV returns around 8L/100km as a "petrol" car. It is difficult to not use some battery over a longer trip. I have not used CHARGE mode since installing the mod.

I selectively use the battery when I choose in traffic congestion and car parks etc.

Since modding my PHEV the car can be driven as a petrol car or short range electric. In memory SAVE mode, for longer petrol type car operation, I only have to recharge the battery about every 4-5 days. This will be ideal when recharging is not always available.

For the shorter local drives, the battery can be used normally. I just leave the memory SAVE setting as SET, and just push the SAVE button again when I hear the ICE start, to go out of SAVE mode.

For me the car works really well as a petrol car and equally as well as a short range electric. The hybrid aspect means I really have 2 cars in one with only one car park needed. I prefer to use both ends of the hybrid operation. The PHEV will use electric and series hybrid in slow traffic and this is quite acceptable during these circumstances.

As an electric vehicle, I may go more than a week and close to 300km with no ICE operation. I have done 4500km in a week as a petrol car with no recharging, and before I modded my PHEV. This did involve CHARGE mode as inevitably a button was forgotten to be pressed after a stop and the battery ran down. If the battery runs down now it is my fault and I can't blame the cars lack of a memory.

modding my car means I can focus on the typical driving tasks and less on relying on a pre-drive checklist. PHEV needs to come from the factory with some sensible way of saving driver settings, preferences, and a bigger petrol tank.

 

[maby]

100% in agreement, gwatpe! I've been following your experiments and may well do my own mods later in the summer when I have more time.

 

[anko]

Thanks for clarifying that, Bob.

In the UK 5% of the list price of the car (including option if any) is added to your taxable income and taxed at either 20% or 40% (or a bit of both). The amount of tax increases each year you have the car as per the table printed above so you have to pick carefully looking ahead.

With us, the addition is fixed for 5 years and depends on the year of first registration. So, you can sell it within 5 years and the second owner will still benefit.

2013: 0%
2014 / 2015: 7%
2016: who knows

The PHEV4 is about £37000 here but the government currently pay £5000 for you. Unfortunately you are still taxed on the £37000 and not on £32000!

Apart from BIK (we call it "bijtelling") we have a few more advantages:
- No road taxes in 2013, 2014 and 2015, reduced road taxes thereafter
- Faster write off (not a huge plus, more a liquidity and interest advantage)
- Extra write off (bigger plus, tax saving is about 14% of list price)
- Euro 0,- car sales tax applied (on my MY2010 Outlander diesel, car sales tax was about EURO 14.000 out of a total of EURO 45.000)

The extra write off has no impact on BIK. But with 'normal' car sales tax, the PHEV would have been at least 10.000 - 15.000 euro more expensive, even when in that case Mitsu would have been force to lower their prices a bit in order to be able to sell the car. The BIK is over the list price including the car sales tax. So the fact that car sales tax is 0 is a big advantage in terms of BIK. Unless you have a 2013 car where the BIK is 0% :mrgreen:

There is two more factors to consider here, firstly if you pay some money back to your employer for use of the vehicle privately (Private use contribution PUC) this is deductable from the BIK.
As the BIK is already low on a PHEV this factor can make the tax tiny!

Same here: some of us have to pay their employers for gas and toll when going abroad for holidays. Those who do can deduct that from BIK. But not if you don't pay BIK. Many realised their holidays had gotten more expensive after getting a car with 0% BIK :lol:

Secondly, there is a certain amount you can earn and pay 20% tax, above that level any extra you earn is then taxed at 40%. For some people, a small BIK will not increase their income enough to pay any 40% tax so the PHEV keeps cheaper. Someone already paying tax at 40% obviously pays double for their PHEV.

Similar over here. Although tax brackets are 36.5%, 42% and 52%.

Sorry all, for being OT here. Done with that now