Using my engine to charge the Battery v Home CharedEV

[IMAK]

Good Morning All.

Last Friday I drove from Dorset to North East Hampshire. I used the engine to charge the battery and over the journey I charged my batteries uo to give me 29 miles of battery range.

When I use my ChargedEV charger I can only change the battery to give me 21 or occasion 22 miles.

Is my home ChargedEV charger faulty or is there another explanation?

IMAK

 

[tfv43]

Good Morning All.

Last Friday I drove from Dorset to North East Hampshire. I used the engine to charge the battery and over the journey I charged my batteries uo to give me 29 miles of battery range.

When I use my ChargedEV charger I can only change the battery to give me 21 or occasion 22 miles.

Is my home ChargedEV charger faulty or is there another explanation?

IMAK

Remember, it's just an estimate based on your current driving. Next time it might be different.

 

[kpetrov]

Good Morning All.

Last Friday I drove from Dorset to North East Hampshire. I used the engine to charge the battery and over the journey I charged my batteries uo to give me 29 miles of battery range.

When I use my ChargedEV charger I can only change the battery to give me 21 or occasion 22 miles.

Is my home ChargedEV charger faulty or is there another explanation?

IMAK

Well, using the engine (Charge button) to charge the battery can go up to 80% only. By plunging it in it can be charged fully 100%

What the remaining miles indicator shows is just interpolation of your recent energy consumption.

 

[scrumpymike]

Just registered on this forum as a fairly PHEV owner and found this topic. My question is slightly different from the OP.

Lots of our driving is local journeys in EV mode. For this kind of use the battery is constantly being cycled from empty to fully recharged via home plug-in. However, I'm not sure what's the best thing to do on longer trips given that we don't want to spend time and money on using public charging points. We always set off with the battery fully home-charged and our default running mode is eco. After the battery has run down is it better to let the car do its own thing (i.e. the engine runs to put a small amount of charge back in the battery, cuts out for a short time, then keeps repeating the cycle) or should I be selecting/holding 'charge' mode until there's a higher level of charge in the battery?

What I'm trying to understand is what's the best procedure to maximise the service life of the battery - by driving long distances with it mostly nearly empty or nearly full? Or doesn't it matter?

 

[kpetrov]

Depends on road ahead of you... btw, why would one run the battery to 0 unless on the final leg going to charging station is mystery to me.

Running down the battery doesn't have any advantages. There should be always charge in the battery left for stop and go traffic ahead, power demand as climbing step hills, mountain, approaching big city etc.

The goal is to run the engine only in parallel mode and that's happening on speeds over 65km/h. so on the highway one should use the engine to save or accumulate charge depending on itinerary.
Don't be afraid to use Charge to build some charge over Save to maintain it. Contrarily to most believes Charge don't use more fuel than Save on the highway. Even the opposite, the probability one's engine to be is series mode instead of parallel during "Save mode" is much higher and thus 15% more losses from energy conversion to propel the vehicle.

 

[scrumpymike]

Depends on road ahead of you... btw, why would one run the battery to 0 unless on the final leg going to charging station is mystery to me.

Running down the battery doesn't have any advantages. There should be always charge in the battery left for stop and go traffic ahead, power demand as climbing step hills, mountain, approaching big city etc.

The goal is to run the engine only in parallel mode and that's happening on speeds over 65km/h. so on the highway one should use the engine to save or accumulate charge depending on itinerary.
Don't be afraid to use Charge to build some charge over Save to maintain it. Contrarily to most believes Charge don't use more fuel than Save on the highway. Even the opposite, the probability one's engine to be is series mode instead of parallel during "Save mode" is much higher and thus 15% more losses from energy conversion to propel the vehicle.

Thanks, your reply and other stuff I've read in the last few days since registering is helping me understand how to get the most out of this amazing vehicle.

In terms of maximising the service life of the battery, is it best to continuously cycle the battery between full and empty? Or should you really avoid letting it run right down? Or doesn't it matter?

 

[ChrisMiller]

The car will do its best not to let the battery fully discharge. What is shown on the dash as 'empty' is really about 15%, precisely because it doesn't help battery life for a Li-ion cell to be fully discharged.

I'm afraid I'm going to confuse matters by disagreeing with kpetrov - I've never used 'Charge' mode in 8 years of running my PHEV, as it's a way of converting expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy. It's purpose is to cope with situations where you're towing and know there's a long, steep climb some distance ahead. In these circumstances, the engine alone may not be sufficient to maintain road speed and the battery will need to be used as well. If this continues for long enough, the car will go into 'turtle/tortoise' mode (that's the symbol that appears on the dash) to protect the battery, and slow down considerably as a result. So it's a good idea to start such a climb with a nearly full battery, and that's what 'Charge' is for.

I do use 'Save' for when I'm on the motorway and know there's going to be some city driving at the end of the journey and want to be able to complete it on electric power. But I always aim to arrive back home (or the next recharge) with an 'empty' battery (which is not really 'empty' - see above).

 

[Lon12]

The car will do its best not to let the battery fully discharge. What is shown on the dash as 'empty' is really about 15%, precisely because it doesn't help battery life for a Li-ion cell to be fully discharged.

I'm afraid I'm going to confuse matters by disagreeing with kpetrov - I've never used 'Charge' mode in 8 years of running my PHEV, as it's a way of converting expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy. It's purpose is to cope with situations where you're towing and know there's a long, steep climb some distance ahead. In these circumstances, the engine alone may not be sufficient to maintain road speed and the battery will need to be used as well. If this continues for long enough, the car will go into 'turtle/tortoise' mode (that's the symbol that appears on the dash) to protect the battery, and slow down considerably as a result. So it's a good idea to start such a climb with a nearly full battery, and that's what 'Charge' is for.

I do use 'Save' for when I'm on the motorway and know there's going to be some city driving at the end of the journey and want to be able to complete it on electric power. But I always aim to arrive back home (or the next recharge) with an 'empty' battery (which is not really 'empty' - see above).

I do exactly the same. Driving across the Rocky Mountains at 120 km/h I find I need a lot of battery. Once the battery is empty the engine struggles going up some of the long steep hills. So I just keep it in Charge until I'm back on flat land.

 

[scrumpymike]

The car will do its best not to let the battery fully discharge. What is shown on the dash as 'empty' is really about 15%, precisely because it doesn't help battery life for a Li-ion cell to be fully discharged.

I'm afraid I'm going to confuse matters by disagreeing with kpetrov - I've never used 'Charge' mode in 8 years of running my PHEV, as it's a way of converting expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy. It's purpose is to cope with situations where you're towing and know there's a long, steep climb some distance ahead. In these circumstances, the engine alone may not be sufficient to maintain road speed and the battery will need to be used as well. If this continues for long enough, the car will go into 'turtle/tortoise' mode (that's the symbol that appears on the dash) to protect the battery, and slow down considerably as a result. So it's a good idea to start such a climb with a nearly full battery, and that's what 'Charge' is for.

I do use 'Save' for when I'm on the motorway and know there's going to be some city driving at the end of the journey and want to be able to complete it on electric power. But I always aim to arrive back home (or the next recharge) with an 'empty' battery (which is not really 'empty' - see above).

Thanks for that. I've been hitting the 'charge' button 5 or so miles from home and selecting EV just before arrival to ensure the ICE doesn't kick in during the process of parking on the drive, opening the garage and reversing in (which often takes place in the early hours of the morning). From what you say re the 15% low-water mark and apparently pessimistic SOC display, I shouldn't need to do that. My next step btw is always to plug the car in for an overnight charge.

 

[kpetrov]

Thanks for that. I've been hitting the 'charge' button 5 or so miles from home and selecting EV just before arrival to ensure the ICE doesn't kick in during the process of parking on the drive, opening the garage and reversing in (which often takes place in the early hours of the morning). From what you say re the 15% low-water mark and apparently pessimistic SOC display, I shouldn't need to do that. My next step btw is always to plug the car in for an overnight charge.

If we talk efficiency one should ensure the engine doesn't kick not only for parking, backing up etc but for any city driving under 65km/h.
Under 65/km/h the engine can work only in series mode with more losses for energy conversion.

 

[kpetrov]

I'm afraid I'm going to confuse matters by disagreeing with kpetrov - I've never used 'Charge' mode in 8 years of running my PHEV, as it's a way of converting expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy. It's purpose is to cope with situations where you're towing and know there's a long, steep climb some distance ahead. In these circumstances, the engine alone may not be sufficient to maintain road speed and the battery will need to be used as well. If this continues for long enough, the car will go into 'turtle/tortoise' mode (that's the symbol that appears on the dash) to protect the battery, and slow down considerably as a result. So it's a good idea to start such a climb with a nearly full battery, and that's what 'Charge' is for.

I do use 'Save' for when I'm on the motorway and know there's going to be some city driving at the end of the journey and want to be able to complete it on electric power. But I always aim to arrive back home (or the next recharge) with an 'empty' battery (which is not really 'empty' - see above).

First, of course anyone should arrive with empty battery and charge from the grid.
I don't understand why most folks get the advise to use "Charge button" literally to fully charge the vehicle instead of plugging it in!
"Charge" is to increase the battery charge to level the user desire, "Save" is to maintain it. "Charge" needs more attention and user input while "Save" is more automatic, press and forget it. The consumption in both is the same if used where should be used - on the highway and if both modes keep the engine in parallel mode of operation.
"Charge" is not for towing and climbing only. It is for building charge for any reason, entering a big city for example.

Chris, why do you think "Save" doesn't convert expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy!?
Save mode will often do this conversion even more inefficiently since it tend to stay often in Series mode instead of Parallel, at least on my vehicle. That's the reason I never use "Save", it keeps my engine in Series but "Charge" keeps it in Parallel.

Ideally "Save" and "Charge" should keep it in Parallel mode on the highway.

 

[scrumpymike]

Thanks for that. I've been hitting the 'charge' button 5 or so miles from home and selecting EV just before arrival to ensure the ICE doesn't kick in during the process of parking on the drive, opening the garage and reversing in (which often takes place in the early hours of the morning). From what you say re the 15% low-water mark and apparently pessimistic SOC display, I shouldn't need to do that. My next step btw is always to plug the car in for an overnight charge.

If we talk efficiency one should ensure the engine doesn't kick not only for parking, backing up etc but for any city driving under 65km/h.
Under 65/km/h the engine can work only in series mode with more losses for energy conversion.

Agreed, I now understand the argument in favour of parallel mode. As it happens, I've been doing what you suggest ever since I got the PHEV but for pollution control rather than operating efficiency reasons.

Thanks for sticking with this. It must be frustrating for you and other knowledgeable members having to keep explaining the same things to newbies. Anyway, you've certainly saved me hours of forum research time.

The biggest problem for me is that I don't think the Mitsubishi owner's manual is as helpful as it could be, certainly not in the English language version.

 

[kpetrov]

Agreed, I now understand the argument in favour of parallel mode. As it happens, I've been doing what you suggest ever since I got the PHEV but for pollution control rather than operating efficiency reasons.

Thanks for sticking with this. It must be frustrating for you and other knowledgeable members having to keep explaining the same things to newbies. Anyway, you've certainly saved me hours of forum research time.

The biggest problem for me is that I don't think the Mitsubishi owner's manual is as helpful as it could be, certainly not in the English language version.

The deal with the manual is that Charge mode is hard to be described for everyday regular user, it depends on circumstances, has to be monitored by the user and if one don't turn it off on time will use more fuel that needed to be used for that particular trip.
While Save is more of a foolproof mode which has to be turned off only once when one reach the distance to charging station equal to what's shown on the guess-O-meter battery range.

 

[ChrisMiller]

Chris, why do you think "Save" doesn't convert expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy!?
Save mode will often do this conversion even more inefficiently since it tend to stay often in Series mode instead of Parallel, at least on my vehicle. That's the reason I never use "Save", it keeps my engine in Series but "Charge" keeps it in Parallel.

Ideally "Save" and "Charge" should keep it in Parallel mode on the highway.

I should have been clearer and written that 'Charge' converts additional petrol to electrical energy. It's true that if you arrive at your destination (or recharge point) with an 'empty' battery, you've used the same amount of fuel, but I don't really want to be thinking "I'm 30km from my destination, should I turn off 'Charge' yet?"

As for series/parallel, I've always understood that this is determined by speed and power demand on the engine. Once the ICE has started, unless I floor the accelerator (in which case the car stays in series up to about 75mph/120kph), because that's the way it can deliver maximum power), it switches to parallel once the road speed is sufficient to allow the engine to engage the fixed gear to the front wheels, which happens at around 45mph/70kph.

It's possible this behaviour is different for newer models (mine is 8 years old).

 

[kpetrov]

Chris, why do you think "Save" doesn't convert expensive petrol into (relatively!) cheap electrical energy!?
Save mode will often do this conversion even more inefficiently since it tend to stay often in Series mode instead of Parallel, at least on my vehicle. That's the reason I never use "Save", it keeps my engine in Series but "Charge" keeps it in Parallel.

Ideally "Save" and "Charge" should keep it in Parallel mode on the highway.

I should have been clearer and written that 'Charge' converts additional petrol to electrical energy. It's true that if you arrive at your destination (or recharge point) with an 'empty' battery, you've used the same amount of fuel, but I don't really want to be thinking "I'm 30km from my destination, should I turn off 'Charge' yet?"

As for series/parallel, I've always understood that this is determined by speed and power demand on the engine. Once the ICE has started, unless I floor the accelerator (in which case the car stays in series up to about 75mph/120kph), because that's the way it can deliver maximum power), it switches to parallel once the road speed is sufficient to allow the engine to engage the fixed gear to the front wheels, which happens at around 45mph/70kph.

It's possible this behaviour is different for newer models (mine is 8 years old).

Well doesn't the same apply for "Save"!? "I'm 30km from my destination, should I turn off 'Save' yet?" Of course it does and if one don't turn it off it converts additional petrol to electrical energy.
Obviously with "Charge" one can overkill it compared to "Save" but if one don't want to think it can always stay in default Normal. Save and Charge are there for an user intentional input.

Regarding series/parallel and the speed... both "Save" and "Charge" should always be used at speeds over 42mph/65kmh. so the vehicle can stay in parallel mode otherwise it's useless and even can be counterproductive.
The goal of "Save" & "Charge" is to make it possible so the engine can work only in parallel mode, never in series. (excluding warm up period)

 

[ChrisMiller]

The goal of "Save" & "Charge" is to make it possible so the engine can work only in parallel mode, never in series. (excluding warm up period)

I remain to be convinced that selection of Save/Charge makes any difference to the way the car's management system switches between series and parallel modes. It's not behaviour that I've ever observed or even read about.

 

[kpetrov]

The goal of "Save" & "Charge" is to make it possible so the engine can work only in parallel mode, never in series. (excluding warm up period)

I remain to be convinced that selection of Save/Charge makes any difference to the way the car's management system switches between series and parallel modes. It's not behaviour that I've ever observed or even read about.

I can't comment on car's management system since there is no information regarding but only from experience.

To have series or parallel the engine should be running so Save or Charge should be selected.

My vehicle 2018, 50000km 85%SOH
In Save mode it rarely stays in parallel, mostly series. Charge mode though keeps it constantly and reliably in parallel mode after the first few minutes of warming up.
From conversations with users on Facebook it looks like when the vehicle is newer (firs few years of use) Save keeps it in parallel mode as well. Somebody have said that Charge mode doesn't keep his vehicle in parallel but I can't be sure if he is using it properly over 65km/h speed.
It will be interesting to me to know other users experiences as well.

Personally using Save for me is ridiculous... turning on and off the engine every 5min. or so is a nonsense for me and since I don't mind to be occupied with vehicle controls and monitoring the charge level Save gives me nothing.

 

[ChrisMiller]

Personally using Save for me is ridiculous... turning on and off the engine every 5min. or so is a nonsense for me and since I don't mind to be occupied with vehicle controls and monitoring the charge level Save gives me nothing.

This behaviour you describe as "nonsense" is fundamental to the way the car (or pretty much any hybrid) operates. The only difference the buttons make is the level of charge in the battery at which it commences. If you do nothing, the car will run in EV mode until the battery reaches an indicated 'zero' (actually about 15%) and then oscillate between ICE on/off. If you select 'Save' the car will start this behaviour at whatever the charge level is when you press the button. If you select 'Charge' the battery will be charged to around 80% and then the oscillation will commence.

Some people claim that there is a 'sweet spot' at which this behaviour is most efficient. Theoretically this may be so, but I doubt it makes a significant difference in overall fuel consumption.

 

[jaapv]

Maybe I am a simplistic person but on long runs I will charge up the battery to the level I think I will need for the slow bits, switch to Save when I have reached that level and use up the electricity when efficient, to arrive empty. I have been doing so for the last ten years and don't bother about what the car is doing under the bonnet.
@kpetrov: Save is exactly the same as running the battery "empty", it only triggers the charge/discharge cycle at a higher charge level. Quite useful if you need your battery later on.

 

[kpetrov]

Personally using Save for me is ridiculous... turning on and off the engine every 5min. or so is a nonsense for me and since I don't mind to be occupied with vehicle controls and monitoring the charge level Save gives me nothing.

This behaviour you describe as "nonsense" is fundamental to the way the car (or pretty much any hybrid) operates. The only difference the buttons make is the level of charge in the battery at which it commences. If you do nothing, the car will run in EV mode until the battery reaches an indicated 'zero' (actually about 15%) and then oscillate between ICE on/off. If you select 'Save' the car will start this behaviour at whatever the charge level is when you press the button. If you select 'Charge' the battery will be charged to around 80% and then the oscillation will commence.

Some people claim that there is a 'sweet spot' at which this behaviour is most efficient. Theoretically this may be so, but I doubt it makes a significant difference in overall fuel consumption.

Which behaviour is nonsense, I didn't get it?
That I prefer to control manually the level of charge and to turn off the Charge exactly when I have the level of charge I need and to let the engine run few long cycles instead of multiple short ones?
I perfectly understand how pretty much any hybrid works oscillate between ICE on/off but since the vehicle has manual override option I use it extensively, especially when Save keeps mine is series mode.