Thoughts on Battery Life/Age

[MatsH]

In Sweden, Mitsubishi has a warranty of min. 78% original capacity in 8 years. Also, on newer models (2016?) the battery pack is modular, so a bad cell can be replaced - Older models, the battery is monolithic and has to be replaced as a whole unit.
All according to the sales person at the dealer.

 

[Claymore]

"Normal wear and tear on traction battery is not covered......."

I've asked Mitsu UK what reduction of charge capacity at 8 years would be deemed NOT normal wear and tear but experience tells me not to remain excited at the prospect of an answer.

I'm pretty sure I remember the salesman at my dealer telling me (I know, pause for laughter) that the packs were expected to retain 80% of nominal capacity at 8 years and I've read similar elsewhere but that's all anecdotal.

Mitsubishi seem to studiously avoid giving that information, for what are maybe obvious reasons.

JimB

Things are looking up - I got a reply from Mitsubishi, and on the same day;

"Thank you for your enquiry.

The battery will lose capacity over time but is expected to still exceed 80% capacity after 10 years. As a result you are correct in saying anything beyond this would be deemed beyond ‘normal’ wear and tear.

I trust this is of assistance."

It's not a guarantee but assuming its an honest statement, and I have no reason to think otherwise (don't spoil tonight's first reason to have a 12 year old malt tonight!), I'll be over the moon if I survive long enough to confirm the situation in 10 years time.



JimB

 

[Steel188]

I think I'll be one of the ones helping us all to find out!

My 12500 mile service is booked for the 11th, and I will only have had the car just over 4 months. It's on a 4 year lease, so 140,000 miles here I come!

I try and look after the battery by charging it fully when I'm in the office, but for work it's a case of get in and drive. For example I'm leaving the office at lunchtime next Wednesday to drive to St.Ives in Cornwall for a meeting on Thursday morning, then all the way back for tea.

Charging at motorway services will only happen if I decide to stop for more than 5 minutes at a time, so most of the 700 miles will be on petrol, letting the car 'do its thing'

Such is the life of a company car.

But I enjoy the quiet, comfortable seats, cruise control and the high view, so I will be happy with my choice until 2020.

 

[EssexBoy]

The long warranty on the battery (16MY) is a good statement of confidence from Mitsu. I expect to keep my PHEV for 10 years and the lower average wear and tear on the engine per mile suggests I will be able to run the vehicle to much higher mileage than an old-fashioned oil burning car. Because battery cells can fail prematurely the design always had to make battery replacement relatively straightforward; a butchers at the workshop manual (linked in this forum somewhere) confirms it's basically a tray full of batteries bolted under the car. I am hopeful that in 8 to 10 years time when I might need to consider replacing the batteries, there will be independent specialists for EVs who replace cells at a reasonable price. As HHL suggests above, there's a good prospect of a future battery/software upgrade actually improving a vehicle's specification beyond its original design. I think the batteries are not a concern. Much more likely the running gear disintegrates after a few years of traversing our disintegrating highways.

 

[lg1726]

Hi,

I love the idea of the PHEV but I'm worried that the price tag simply doesn't measure up.
I work from home, do the school run and some occasional business mileage and I require a large boot.

I'm trying to find an indication as to how long (in years) the battery should last based on average use.
Is it the case that once it hits 5 years old, the charging features are useless without forking out for new batteries?

If I can expect the batteries to eventually become useless, whats the MPG for petrol on the PHEV?

Many thanks
Dan

Me and my partner both work from home and do 10/15 miles per day, school run/shopping/drop off/pick ups, on average and the price tag really does measure up! In 9 months have done 6660miles, 90-95% urban/suburban, have averaged about £28/9 per month in charge costs (home charger in the drive) and have used 5 tanks of petrol (40L per fill). Total fuel/electricity costs in 9 months = £477 or £53 per month and no vehicle excise duty either. Our previous 9 year old car was brutal in petrol consumption latterly as we were only getting about 225/250 per 60L tank, so in the same period that would have meant c27 tanks of 60L each time!

Obviously you will have to work out if your normal driving pattern stacks up, but the advice was I given by an aquaintence who is an EV expert was to keep a little notebook in the car and for an average month to note down all trips; miles covered, chances to charge, note any public charges on routine journeys, log fuel ups and closely calculate cost per mile, per week, per month and per tank of fuel before making the decision. Once I did that and factored corporate tax efficiencies and BIK, it was a no-brainer!

I was told when I bought it that the battery had a 5 year warranty, but that it is made up of modules of cells and in the event that any cells needed to replaced after this time this could be done without replacing the entire battery. I have to say that as I have leased the car on a 3 year deal, the 5 year battery warranty was good enough for me, but I was given to understand that the need to replace the entire battery was most unlikely.

The numbers really do stack up for us, but only you will know how it will work out for you, but in my/our experience, it's well worth taking the time to consider it!

 

[Kesto]

When all Ev miles are done there 30% charge left and when you rapid charger you can do only 80% this is to protect the drive battery Tesla does the same. Yes there is an unknown factor here but my dealer always said "we dont know" but the technology has been tested for many years over a decade by Mitsubishi and that is why there is a 5 year gaurantee. My dealer told there are 80 individual cells and not all go wrong and individual cells can be changed . Prediction is that in 5 years even if you want to change the whole set the cost will have come down to 2k -3k. There is a company in the south who are refurbishing Leaf batteries
My opinion on any new technology go for PCP or HP.
Mordern cars are not worth after 7 years due to too much electronics and after 7/8 years if they go wrong, cost of repair is exhorbitant and more than value of car. I have been through this. At the end of the day car is an expensive affair but for most a necessity.

 

[zzcoopej]

The battery will lose capacity over time but is expected to still exceed 80% capacity after 10 years.

The real world data we are collecting via the EvBatMon Android App (soon iOS too) confirms that 80% after 10 years is very likely as the battery degradation curve is leveling out as time goes on. See the following graph of how my PHEV battery is degrading over distance (we also graph against time) and against other PHEV owners here - http://www.evpositive.com/battery-history.html

Look at the blue line which is the average of all PHEV contributing to the dataset. At an average of 20,000km per year for 10 years (200,000km) the capacity is expected to be 29Ah where the blue line ends on the right side. This is a drop from about 38Ah new, so 29/38 = 76%, very close to the 80% coming from Mitsubishi!

 

[Ollycat]

Battery life isn't my primary concern. What worries me is how far battery technology will have moved on in 5 years time. Am I going to be saddled with a worthless brick when newer hybrids will be lighter and have much better boot space?

 

[maby]

Battery life isn't my primary concern. What worries me is how far battery technology will have moved on in 5 years time. Am I going to be saddled with a worthless brick when newer hybrids will be lighter and have much better boot space?

I would not expect the resale value of a PHEV at 5 to 10 years out to be particularly good...

 

[greendwarf]

Battery life isn't my primary concern. What worries me is how far battery technology will have moved on in 5 years time. Am I going to be saddled with a worthless brick when newer hybrids will be lighter and have much better boot space?

Really? - its taken us over 100 years to get here. But even if you are right, think yourself lucky you didn't buy the diesel version :mrgreen:

 

[asknights]

Sorry, a follow up question, have any of you paid to have a charging station installed at home? If yes, were you happy with the install and was it installed neatly?

Hi danj1980
Like you I needed a new car, Road tax was getting bit of a joke for 2Ltr diesel people carrier so decided on getting a 1 year old Outlander PHEV, though I'm not getting the quoted manufacture mileage, I am happy with the 27 Miles per charge and 92Mpg when in hybrid mode, (Unless I go into silver surfer boy racing mode, it can shift when it wants to )

So on average its costing me between 8 and 10p a mile on fuel including charging costs, I'm doing around 34 miles per day in London traffic.

I opted for Charge Master to install a home charging point and can't recommend them enough. At a £395.00, it well worth having it fitted, apparently the government make up the difference , It takes a while from applying for the point to its actual fitting as they do a survey first, but once that has been done it took the engineer about 3 hours to fit it.


Overall, with No road tax, No Congestion charge and low running costs its win-win, for me at least anyway.

T.

 

[PHEV07]

Battery life isn't my primary concern. What worries me is how far battery technology will have moved on in 5 years time. Am I going to be saddled with a worthless brick when newer hybrids will be lighter and have much better boot space?

Actually the goal is to have improvements in Battery Technology much sooner than that, the sooner the Better.

With the introduction of the Li-on Battery over the Nickel Cadmium, Battery Packs have gotten smaller and lighter but the kWh ratings have gotten higher at a lower cost for the Battery Packs.

If an EV Vehicle is designed to be operated at 320VDC, then newer Batteries will merely be configured to this Voltage but with Improved Battery technology, the Battery Packs will be made Smaller and will be lighter which in turn will give better Mileage per Charge and with the added bonus of being able to charge the Battery Pack Faster.

The Vehicle Wiring and Electrics can remain the same except perhaps for re-calibrating the Computer and the display to accommodate a 16kWh Battery instead of the current 12kWh one. The Higher the Battery kWh rating the longer the Vehicle can travel per charge.

Within 5 years it is hoped that the New Battery can hold 10 times the charge of the current ones and be charged in less than 5 times the time required today.

 

[jaapv]

About that hope, let's wait and see, and if, at what price. there are many ideas under development right now.

 

[maby]

Battery life isn't my primary concern. What worries me is how far battery technology will have moved on in 5 years time. Am I going to be saddled with a worthless brick when newer hybrids will be lighter and have much better boot space?

Actually the goal is to have improvements in Battery Technology much sooner than that, the sooner the Better.

With the introduction of the Li-on Battery over the Nickel Cadmium, Battery Packs have gotten smaller and lighter but the kWh ratings have gotten higher at a lower cost for the Battery Packs.

If an EV Vehicle is designed to be operated at 320VDC, then newer Batteries will merely be configured to this Voltage but with Improved Battery technology, the Battery Packs will be made Smaller and will be lighter which in turn will give better Mileage per Charge and with the added bonus of being able to charge the Battery Pack Faster.

The Vehicle Wiring and Electrics can remain the same except perhaps for re-calibrating the Computer and the display to accommodate a 16kWh Battery instead of the current 12kWh one. The Higher the Battery kWh rating the longer the Vehicle can travel per charge.

Within 5 years it is hoped that the New Battery can hold 10 times the charge of the current ones and be charged in less than 5 times the time required today.

Given that it takes three to four hours now, it would have to be a lot less than 5 times the time required today or you would only have a driveable car for five or six hours per day!

 

[PHEV07]

Given that it takes three to four hours now, it would have to be a lot less than 5 times the time required today or you would only have a driveable car for five or six hours per day!

If the newer Batteries were able to hold 10x the charge then one would be able to drive 30 x 10 = 300 miles per charge.

If the charge time were 5 times faster then the current 4 hours may only take 1 to 2 Hours, allowing EV Mode for 22 Hours a day.

Not saying this technology will be available over night but that is what Battery Manufacturers are striving for.

 

[greendwarf]

Battery life isn't my primary concern. What worries me is how far battery technology will have moved on in 5 years time. Am I going to be saddled with a worthless brick when newer hybrids will be lighter and have much better boot space?

Actually the goal is to have improvements in Battery Technology much sooner than that, the sooner the Better.

With the introduction of the Li-on Battery over the Nickel Cadmium, Battery Packs have gotten smaller and lighter but the kWh ratings have gotten higher at a lower cost for the Battery Packs.

If an EV Vehicle is designed to be operated at 320VDC, then newer Batteries will merely be configured to this Voltage but with Improved Battery technology, the Battery Packs will be made Smaller and will be lighter which in turn will give better Mileage per Charge and with the added bonus of being able to charge the Battery Pack Faster.

The Vehicle Wiring and Electrics can remain the same except perhaps for re-calibrating the Computer and the display to accommodate a 16kWh Battery instead of the current 12kWh one. The Higher the Battery kWh rating the longer the Vehicle can travel per charge.

Within 5 years it is hoped that the New Battery can hold 10 times the charge of the current ones and be charged in less than 5 times the time required today.

Really? To meet the above timescale there would have to be pre-production prototypes already in existence - any evidence? :roll: