The true about battery degrdation in the Outlander PHEV

[elm70]

Here is the truth ... in pictures

 

[elm70]

Pictures are quite clear -10% SOH after less then 20.000km

-20% SOH after less then 50.000

For a car that was advertised to be able to hold over 80% SOH for the entire life of the car ... the data are far away from the Mitsubishi "hopes"

Looking at the picture which include the MV19 ... it does not look that the battery degradation issue has been "fixed' on the latest PHEV

 

[Woodman411]

Pictures are quite clear -10% SOH after less then 20.000km

-20% SOH after less then 50.000

For a car that was advertised to be able to hold over 80% SOH for the entire life of the car ... the data are far away from the Mitsubishi "hopes"

Looking at the picture which include the MV19 ... it does not look that the battery degradation issue has been "fixed' on the latest PHEV

Thanks for sharing. This has been weighing on my mind, and not just from this one user, from others too. Might be abandoning my Mitsubishi musings...

 

[maby]

Thanks for sharing. This has been weighing on my mind, and not just from this one user, from others too. Might be abandoning my Mitsubishi musings...

Speaking as a PHEV owner, I maintain that in the absence of some very significant tax incentives the car does not make sense for the majority of people. Its EV range is so short that you will only really save on running costs if your usage is almost exclusively short distance urban commutes - in which case a compact pure EV will fill the bill and be cheaper to purchase. It's not a particularly good off-roader and if you take it out into the country away from mains power you will be running primarily on petrol, so you may as well buy a Jeep and get a proper 4x4.

When we bought ours, the British government was offering some strong incentives - particularly to company car drivers. For us, the total cost of ownership has been pretty low thus far - though that may change if the battery pack dies before the car is at least ten years old!

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Speaking as a PHEV owner, I maintain that in the absence of some very significant tax incentives the car does not make sense for the majority of people. Its EV range is so short that you will only really save on running costs if your usage is almost exclusively short distance urban commutes - in which case a compact pure EV will fill the bill and be cheaper to purchase. It's not a particularly good off-roader and if you take it out into the country away from mains power you will be running primarily on petrol, so you may as well buy a Jeep and get a proper 4x4.

I couldn't disagree more. We already have a small EV, but needed a car to replace our family car. With the kids now at Uni, we needed something that could potter around cheaply at home doing local journeys, but also something that could do long journeys to visit relatives and drop a car-load of stuff off at Uni. We could have got another small EV AND a bigger car for the longer journeys, but it made sense to get one PHEV for both. We didn't necessarily want the Mitsubishi, but the cost and availability of secondhand versions made it the obvious choice

 

[maby]

Speaking as a PHEV owner, I maintain that in the absence of some very significant tax incentives the car does not make sense for the majority of people. Its EV range is so short that you will only really save on running costs if your usage is almost exclusively short distance urban commutes - in which case a compact pure EV will fill the bill and be cheaper to purchase. It's not a particularly good off-roader and if you take it out into the country away from mains power you will be running primarily on petrol, so you may as well buy a Jeep and get a proper 4x4.

I couldn't disagree more. We already have a small EV, but needed a car to replace our family car. With the kids now at Uni, we needed something that could potter around cheaply at home doing local journeys, but also something that could do long journeys to visit relatives and drop a car-load of stuff off at Uni. We could have got another small EV AND a bigger car for the longer journeys, but it made sense to get one PHEV for both. We didn't necessarily want the Mitsubishi, but the cost and availability of secondhand versions made it the obvious choice

I guess I was looking at it from the point of view of the purchase of a new car - it is true that the PHEV holds its value rather badly and a second-hand model two or three years old may be a more attractive proposition. In fact the rather fast depreciation was another attraction for us - we were able to purchase a brand new PHEV as a company vehicle with some good tax incentives, own it as a company car for three years with very low BIK penalties, write it off against corporation tax completely, then sell it to ourselves for £12k after having given it a full service and refurb at company expense - all very tax efficient!

The price premium of the new PHEV over similar non-hybrids together with the question marks hanging over its life expectancy would certainly stop me considering a new one as a private purchase. There are very respectable non-hybrid SUVs on the market with an on-the-road price which is at least £10k less than the PHEV and without the threat of early battery failure hanging over them - few owners are going to recoup that price premium over the reasonable lifetime of the car, far less save any money. The government has removed most of the incentives on the car now and I really don't see how it makes sense to many people to purchase one new - either privately or as a company car.

 

[elm70]

Partially off topic .. but two very good point from maby and ThudnBlundr

I bought my PHEV 2nd hand, possibly for the same reason of ThudnBlundr. It was cheap enough, and was looking a nice family car which could offer cheap daily commute in EV, and the freedom on long vacation trip with the ICE

Still, I believe that financially, without any country support, as new, it would not have been a valuable option for me, as pointed out by maby. But ... financial evaluation it is a complex matter ... but for simplify, let's says that in the EU countries without tax benefit, the PHEV are almost impossible to sell new in the market. EU sales figures speaks clearly about it ... just looking Spain and Italy market, compared to France, Germany and UK

Anyhow ... the 2nd hand price of the PHEV can make economical sense ... at the end this car allow ~40km a day in EV mode (could be more if people can recharge more often, but it would be uncommon) ... let say 35km a day x 6 days a weeks x 54 weeks .. this is 11.000km a year in EV mode ... which around 10cent euro per km in saving ... this make around 1000 euro saving a year in fuel.

Now ... if the EV range get shorter and short, the potential 1k Euro fuel saving a year get less and less.

Once the EV range is too pure, and the PHEV will run more like a normal hybrid .. then the fuel saving will be practically zero

Still a potential of 1k Euro saving a year is not a big thing, still, it is an extra motivation ... what also helps a lot is reducing the time spent at the tank station ... again .. something that with a pure EV range will be lost, especially considering the small fuel tank of the PHEV.

So ... 10k extra price tag when buying new, it will not cover the 1k saving a year ... but as 2nd hand PHEV with a price drop over 50% after 3 years ... the 5k difference, into the 7 years life left of the car, this can make economical sense

PS: So far the drop in price as 2nd hand of this PHEV, I bet it is more to do with the discount and tax benefit when buying the car new ... the potential battery degradation "issue" I believe does not impact much the market value of a 2nd hand PHEV ... still does not really help ... I believe the Volt/Ampera having a more solid battery , they are keeping a better prince in the 2nd hand market.

 

[richr]

For me, it still makes sense as a second hand car even if the battery were to drop to 50% of its original capacity. I've just changed from a 15 year old 3.0 litre Subaru Outback to a 4 year old PHEV GX4H. My daily commute used to be 55 miles a day, now it's only 5. But I still do the occasional longer journey of 150 miles or more at the weekend. That's well out of EV range anyway, so even switching to mainly petrol 10 miles earlier and acting like an HEV won't make any huge difference on average. And the fuel and tax cost will still be lower than my old Subaru. I have no interest in trying hard to run in pure EV mode and putting up with compromises like not having the heating on as a result. I can do most of my week's commute on a single charge though once I get a charge point installed near where I park I'll probably put it on charge most nights.

I paid £15k for it, and I've never owned a car that's still in manufacturer's warranty before, usually they're over 5 years old This is a bit more than I'd normally pay for a car, but given the £500 a year I'm saving in VED, that offsets than somewhat.

I think the thing with the Outlander PHEV is that it's not brilliant at anything in particular, but it provides the practicality of a big boot, 4WD and higher ground clearance with the ability to do pure EV for a reasonable distance as well as reasonable fuel economy when the battery's used up (well, 30% actual SOC) - and nothing else on the market really does for a similar price.

So it doesn't suit everyone, but for a reasonable percentage of people it works very well.

 

[ChrisMiller]

given the £500 a year I'm saving in VED, that offsets than somewhat.

Is that a typo for £300? It sounds very high, unless you were driving a RR Phantom

 

[maby]

...

So it doesn't suit everyone, but for a reasonable percentage of people it works very well.

As we've already recognised, there is a big difference between the economics of a new PHEV and a nearly new PHEV given the high level of depreciation. I guess the issue that may arise is that with the government incentives disappearing, there will be fewer and fewer new PHEVs purchased and that will impact on the availability of decent second hand models.

 

[richr]

given the £500 a year I'm saving in VED, that offsets than somewhat.

Is that a typo for £300? It sounds very high, unless you were driving a RR Phantom

Nope - 2005 registered car with CO2 emissions of 233g/km was £520 last year. Bit of a difference to my PHEV at £0

My wife's 2008 VW Caravelle 2.5 TDI is £555 this year (257g/km CO2), yet my 1991 Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5 (mechanical injection diesel producing a whopping 90bhp) is only £255 because it's before emissions related car tax was introduced...

 

[maby]

given the £500 a year I'm saving in VED, that offsets than somewhat.

Is that a typo for £300? It sounds very high, unless you were driving a RR Phantom

Nope - 2005 registered car with CO2 emissions of 233g/km was £520 last year. Bit of a difference to my PHEV at £0

My wife's 2008 VW Caravelle 2.5 TDI is £555 this year (257g/km CO2), yet my 1991 Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5 (mechanical injection diesel producing a whopping 90bhp) is only £255 because it's before emissions related car tax was introduced...

Mmmm, good, isn't it? Our 4.5 litre turbo charged Landcruiser is also sub-£300! We are nursing that car along - hope it will outlast me!

 

[Trex]

My oldest son who drive my first PHEV and comes on here lurking ( he is not a member) said to me when he saw the title of this thread:

"I want the true.................. You can't handle the true!" and he was, and my other son, cracking up laughing. Ah, kids can be cruel sometimes. :roll: For those who have not seen it he was referencing the movie A Few Good Men. The sons love that movie. You should probably fix that title to stop people laughing at you IMO.

Now onto the topic. Have any of those data points in the graphs had their BMU recalibrated. Because as we know the BMU is guessing its SOH unless its recalibrated every now and again.

As I said over in technical:

Now this was posted Sun Dec 27, 2015 so nearly 2 years after it was built my oldest PHEV that we did not baby is approx the same as my new PHEV that we do. :roll:

Do I think my new PHEV is degraded this bad for real? No I do not. I think the BMU is being very pessimistic on the new PHEVs as some around here have noticed including the person I quoted above.

Will I bother to get my BMU recalibrated at this stage? Not sure. I may wait to see because it is not effecting the range we need while EVing but I would love to know for sure like the person I quoted above just to satisfy my curiosity.

I would not like to see people going off half cocked around here till we know for sure IMO.

Or they could be using batteries on the new models that are not as good a quality as the batteries on the old model but I think that unlikely.

 

[greendwarf]

Speaking as a PHEV owner, I maintain that in the absence of some very significant tax incentives the car does not make sense for the majority of people. Its EV range is so short that you will only really save on running costs if your usage is almost exclusively short distance urban commutes - in which case a compact pure EV will fill the bill and be cheaper to purchase. It's not a particularly good off-roader and if you take it out into the country away from mains power you will be running primarily on petrol, so you may as well buy a Jeep and get a proper 4x4.

I couldn't disagree more. We already have a small EV, but needed a car to replace our family car. With the kids now at Uni, we needed something that could potter around cheaply at home doing local journeys, but also something that could do long journeys to visit relatives and drop a car-load of stuff off at Uni. We could have got another small EV AND a bigger car for the longer journeys, but it made sense to get one PHEV for both. We didn't necessarily want the Mitsubishi, but the cost and availability of secondhand versions made it the obvious choice

And it has the capacity to haul stuff to local dump etc. plus in London (where there are now a lot of them) there is still the zero Congestion Charge and almost free parking in Westminster - the latter don't save me any money (I'm old enough for free public transport :lol: ) but oh! the comfort for the daily commute.

 

[elm70]

An example of a low km MY2019 car:

3.4% SOH lost in just 2400km ... that is around 1.5Ah lost

PS: Based on temperature, it is looking somebody from Australia or somewhere in the south hemisphere