Tesla versus the mighty PHEV.

[Trex]

I am sure people have noticed Telsa get mentioned around this forum sometimes. This comparison with the Phev and particularly with the tesla model x which is AWD and a SUV like our Phev is what I wish to discuss.

Now firstly from my point of view the model X is nothing but a novelty. For the price of the cheapest new Tesla X over here I can buy 2 new top of the range model PHEVs . Do I think a Model X is worth more than my PHEV x 2, no bloody way! Especially over here where our infrastructure for fast charging is very weak. Good luck trying to drive around Australia with a Tesla.

Now it has been mentioned on this forum that our Phev is not a "proper" EV like the Tesla so we should not be trying to burn no fuel on our daily commute. To this I say BS. I have owned a Phev for nearly 5 years and all the daily commutes of my wife to work (she is a teacher), who mainly drove it, have been EV. It was the whole idea of us buying the Phev in the first place that it has a 50km range around town but we only need approx 25kms on average of that range to allow for battery degradation.

Now speaking of battery degradation. It has also been mentioned by certain people here that tesla have better batteries than our Phev. I will not get into slanging match here about that but I will say so what if it does? For the price of a model X compared to a PHEV I can buy a lot of batteries as ours degrade.

So that is my opinion. So what say you? Would you prefer Tesla over the Phev. Maybe that is why some here cannot stop talking about them and keep bagging the Phev. They want Tesla but cannot afford it and just have to rough it out down here with the Phev.

 

[greendwarf]

And I wonder how many times a Tesla owner bangs his (or her) head on those bloody silly doors :lol: Of course, in many UK multi-storey car parks it wouldn't be a problem because there isn't the height clearance to open them anyway :roll:

 

[Woodman411]

Now speaking of battery degradation. It has also been mentioned by certain people here that tesla have better batteries than our Phev. I will not get into slanging match here about that but I will say so what if it does? For the price of a model X compared to a PHEV I can buy a lot of batteries as ours degrade.

So how much does it cost again to get the battery replaced, parts and labor? Would genuinely like to know what the dealer charges for this.

 

[Trex]

And I wonder how many times a Tesla owner bangs his (or her) head on those bloody silly doors :lol: Of course, in many UK multi-storey car parks it wouldn't be a problem because there isn't the height clearance to open them anyway :roll:

:lol:

 

[Trex]

Now speaking of battery degradation. It has also been mentioned by certain people here that tesla have better batteries than our Phev. I will not get into slanging match here about that but I will say so what if it does? For the price of a model X compared to a PHEV I can buy a lot of batteries as ours degrade.

So how much does it cost again to get the battery replaced, parts and labor? Would genuinely like to know what the dealer charges for this.

From memory when I asked this a number of years ago it was about $10k Australian. This includes (from memory) a new case, blower, AC condenser etc basically drop in. It did not include any exchange value for the old battery if any. But I must emphasise that this was NOT a written quote, just a what if question a number of years ago.

I am not sure I would go down that path yet as I may do it myself if I can find the right cells.

But this is all conjecture at this moment. Still getting over 40kms around town with the old PHEV and this is with "proper" 4WD tyres. May just need a software update in the future so we can use more of our reserve that is sitting in our battery now to tide us over for the time being.

 

[STS134]

Well here in California, the charging infrastructure for Teslas is pretty strong. Even so, I ruled out the X fairly early, as even 30-60 minutes at a supercharger is longer than I'd want to spend stopped on the side of the road on a long trip. But, the vehicles I was considering were Tesla Model X, Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid, Mercedes GLE550e, and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Model X was eliminated first for having too long of a refuel time. GLE550e was eliminated second, due to the batteries taking up the lowest 6" of the cargo area, which dramatically reduces cargo space, as well as for having a nearly useless all EV range of 12 miles. At that point, I'm not sure what the purpose is. Cayenne S E-Hybrid remained a contender for the second longest, but ultimately lost due to not qualifying for the HOV lane access sticker and only having a pure EV range of 14 miles. Outlander PHEV basically won by process of elimination.

It's not just us comparing these two vehicles (MX and Outlander PHEV), they did so over on the Tesla forums too. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/outlander-phev-vs-model-x

Anyway, IF your commute is under 22-25 miles AND it is all on surface streets, I can see how you'd be burning no gas on your daily commute. My commute almost always involves freeway driving so unless the freeways are congested the entire way, I'm using the ICE for at least part of the journey. But still, it's a lot of wear and tear on the battery to put it through even half a cycle a day. Equivalent on a Tesla would be driving around 50k miles/year so that's why I expect to have the replace the battery pack at least once during the life of the car.

 

[anko]

And I wonder how many times a Tesla owner bangs his (or her) head on those bloody silly doors :lol: Of course, in many UK multi-storey car parks it wouldn't be a problem because there isn't the height clearance to open them anyway :roll:

You are not being fair to them. They have created a brilliant solution for that problem (happily ignoring the fact that it was them who created the problem in the first place).

 

[maby]

...

So that is my opinion. So what say you? Would you prefer Tesla over the Phev. Maybe that is why some here cannot stop talking about them and keep bagging the Phev. They want Tesla but cannot afford it and just have to rough it out down here with the Phev.

Well, I wouldn't have a pure EV under any circumstances - which pretty much rules out a Tesla. I reckon I have a maximum of twenty years of driving left in me, so I should be able to avoid any ban on petrol vehicles. Mind you, I would not have another PHEV either - with the incentives gone, it does not make financial sense. The current PHEV is about four years old - hoping that it will make it to ten. If a vehicle of that price cannot get to ten years old without the need for expensive repairs, it is certainly not a vehicle i would want again. If my ability to drive safely outlives the current car, then I'll look at petrol automatics to see me out.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Well here in California, the charging infrastructure for Teslas is pretty strong. Even so, I ruled out the X fairly early, as even 30-60 minutes at a supercharger is longer than I'd want to spend stopped on the side of the road on a long trip. But, the vehicles I was considering were Tesla Model X, Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid, Mercedes GLE550e, and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Model X was eliminated first for having too long of a refuel time. GLE550e was eliminated second, due to the batteries taking up the lowest 6" of the cargo area, which dramatically reduces cargo space, as well as for having a nearly useless all EV range of 12 miles. At that point, I'm not sure what the purpose is. Cayenne S E-Hybrid remained a contender for the second longest, but ultimately lost due to not qualifying for the HOV lane access sticker and only having a pure EV range of 14 miles. Outlander PHEV basically won by process of elimination.

It's not just us comparing these two vehicles (MX and Outlander PHEV), they did so over on the Tesla forums too. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/outlander-phev-vs-model-x

Anyway, IF your commute is under 22-25 miles AND it is all on surface streets, I can see how you'd be burning no gas on your daily commute. My commute almost always involves freeway driving so unless the freeways are congested the entire way, I'm using the ICE for at least part of the journey. But still, it's a lot of wear and tear on the battery to put it through even half a cycle a day. Equivalent on a Tesla would be driving around 50k miles/year so that's why I expect to have the replace the battery pack at least once during the life of the car.

Back to the OP's point, all the cars you mentioned are way more expensive than the PHEV. The fact that it is better in many ways than those is quite a tribute. When we bought ours, I was comparing secondhand prices. As most of the competition is much newer, I had the benefit of buying an older PHEV and getting much more car for my money than say a secondhand Golf GTE. The latter would have ticked all our boxes, but almost certainly have been less useful than the PHEV

 

[Trex]

Well here in California, the charging infrastructure for Teslas is pretty strong. Even so, I ruled out the X fairly early, as even 30-60 minutes at a supercharger is longer than I'd want to spend stopped on the side of the road on a long trip. But, the vehicles I was considering were Tesla Model X, Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid, Mercedes GLE550e, and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Model X was eliminated first for having too long of a refuel time. GLE550e was eliminated second, due to the batteries taking up the lowest 6" of the cargo area, which dramatically reduces cargo space, as well as for having a nearly useless all EV range of 12 miles. At that point, I'm not sure what the purpose is. Cayenne S E-Hybrid remained a contender for the second longest, but ultimately lost due to not qualifying for the HOV lane access sticker and only having a pure EV range of 14 miles. Outlander PHEV basically won by process of elimination.

Bloody hell. All these cars you are comparing the PHEV with are at least twice the price of our dearest model PHEV over here from what I can see. Good to see the PHEV came out on top and saved you money.

My commute almost always involves freeway driving so unless the freeways are congested the entire way, I'm using the ICE for at least part of the journey.

If you do not mind me asking just how far is your commute including the freeway section?

But still, it's a lot of wear and tear on the battery to put it through even half a cycle a day. Equivalent on a Tesla would be driving around 50k miles/year so that's why I expect to have the replace the battery pack at least once during the life of the car.

Ok, this is where we will obviously differ in opinion. So according to you I should carry around a MUCH bigger battery with massive range I do not need to decrease degradation? I am already carrying around a battery that's twice as big as my average needs. Under your rules I would need to own a BEV plus another car for doing trips away. Yes?

Well that is not how I look at it. What I think is we should only carry around what we need plus an allowance for degradation over the lifetime of the vehicle.

Now obviously IMO we are all beta testers in this stage of the PHEV's cycle and some will find probably, including myself, that we cannot make full lifetime of the vehicle without a change of the drive battery BUT I think as time goes on this will improve.

 

[Trex]

Well, I wouldn't have a pure EV under any circumstances - which pretty much rules out a Tesla. I reckon I have a maximum of twenty years of driving left in me, so I should be able to avoid any ban on petrol vehicles. Mind you, I would not have another PHEV either - with the incentives gone, it does not make financial sense. The current PHEV is about four years old - hoping that it will make it to ten. If a vehicle of that price cannot get to ten years old without the need for expensive repairs, it is certainly not a vehicle i would want again. If my ability to drive safely outlives the current car, then I'll look at petrol automatics to see me out.

Hello maby, how are you and your PHEV going?

Why no EV under any circumstances? Even if they come up with ways of filling a EV as quick as fossil fuelled cars?

If you do not mind me asking just what proportion of EV has your PHEV done and do you know your degradation of your drive battery? I am seriously wanting to know this for research purposes. Yours should be perfect as a control as you mainly treat it like a hybrid yes?

Regards Trex

 

[Trex]

Back to the OP's point, all the cars you mentioned are way more expensive than the PHEV. The fact that it is better in many ways than those is quite a tribute.

Yes, someone else agrees with me. Go the mighty PHEV.

As most of the competition is much newer, I had the benefit of buying an older PHEV and getting much more car for my money than say a secondhand Golf GTE. The latter would have ticked all our boxes, but almost certainly have been less useful than the PHEV

Your talking about size right? I think the PHEV is a pretty good size as well.

 

[greendwarf]

And I wonder how many times a Tesla owner bangs his (or her) head on those bloody silly doors :lol: Of course, in many UK multi-storey car parks it wouldn't be a problem because there isn't the height clearance to open them anyway :roll:

You are not being fair to them. They have created a brilliant solution for that problem (happily ignoring the fact that it was them who created the problem in the first place).

Perhaps, but as I don't know what the "brilliant solution" is, I'll take your word for it.

 

[maby]

Well, I wouldn't have a pure EV under any circumstances - which pretty much rules out a Tesla. I reckon I have a maximum of twenty years of driving left in me, so I should be able to avoid any ban on petrol vehicles. Mind you, I would not have another PHEV either - with the incentives gone, it does not make financial sense. The current PHEV is about four years old - hoping that it will make it to ten. If a vehicle of that price cannot get to ten years old without the need for expensive repairs, it is certainly not a vehicle i would want again. If my ability to drive safely outlives the current car, then I'll look at petrol automatics to see me out.

Hello maby, how are you and your PHEV going?

Why no EV under any circumstances? Even if they come up with ways of filling a EV as quick as fossil fuelled cars?

If you do not mind me asking just what proportion of EV has your PHEV done and do you know your degradation of your drive battery? I am seriously wanting to know this for research purposes. Yours should be perfect as a control as you mainly treat it like a hybrid yes?

Regards Trex

Hello there! Both I and the PHEV are ticking along - not sure which of us is going to wear out first!

Objectively, you are right - I would have an EV provided it overcame all the disadvantages of the current generation in terms of short range, long recharging times and questionable battery life leading to an expensive repair before its tenth birthday. My son is driving our old Prius which is now approaching 15 years old, done well on the way to 200,000 miles and seems to run perfectly well. It has needed a variety of minor mechanical repairs, but the engine, electric drive and battery have not had any maintenance apart from scheduled oil changes - that is the way a car should last!

Our PHEV is still running as a hybrid. I'm not aware of any easy way to get the lifetime proportion of EV use, but it must be low. The car has something like 55,000 miles on the clock, does somewhere between 250 and 300 miles most weeks and that consists of two runs of about 100 miles each plus local commuting. There are no charging facilities at our weekday location, so it generally gets charged once per week and I hold it around 60 to 70% charged using Save. The long trips are at motorway speeds, so most of the time in parallel drive mode.

I don't have the gear to get a battery health figure for it, but subjectively the battery range has not changed much since the day it was delivered. But you have to understand that it was never anything like the advertised figure - I have posted my numbers here before. I did a test when the car was a few weeks old and got an EV range of 29 miles driving it like a milkfloat in absolutely ideal conditions with a range of about 24 miles in more realistic driving conditions in summer weather. In the middle of its first winter, I was seeing a range of about 16 miles. These days I reckon that I can get around 22 miles in the summer and 15 in the winter.

 

[VillageIdiotDan]

I did this (PHEV v Tesla) comparison while sitting in a Berlin supermarket with my brother waiting for his Leaf charge

He suggested most PHEV owners never charge their cars, I rather disingenuously suggested that pure EV only works for the majority of EV owners because their use case could be achieved largely using public transport and how absolute statements aren't constructive. He countered with the irrefutable truth that our Mum loved him best!

We then crudely worked out that his leaf will cover 4.5km per Kw, the PHEV 3km per Kw (on EV) and the mighty Tesla a whopping 2.5km per Kw. So it all then comes down to what your typical journey is over the year to choose between the various options.

 

[Trex]

And I wonder how many times a Tesla owner bangs his (or her) head on those bloody silly doors :lol: Of course, in many UK multi-storey car parks it wouldn't be a problem because there isn't the height clearance to open them anyway :roll:

You are not being fair to them. They have created a brilliant solution for that problem (happily ignoring the fact that it was them who created the problem in the first place).

Perhaps, but as I don't know what the "brilliant solution" is, I'll take your word for it.

Hello Mr greendwarf Sir,

He might be mentioning about how the "Falcon" doors have sensors to stop them hitting the roof in car parks and such. It stops the opening as far as they normally would but
it make them more susceptible to hitting your head on the doors from what I can see.

 

[Trex]

Hello there! Both I and the PHEV are ticking along - not sure which of us is going to wear out first!

Objectively, you are right - I would have an EV provided it overcame all the disadvantages of the current generation in terms of short range, long recharging times and questionable battery life leading to an expensive repair before its tenth birthday. My son is driving our old Prius which is now approaching 15 years old, done well on the way to 200,000 miles and seems to run perfectly well. It has needed a variety of minor mechanical repairs, but the engine, electric drive and battery have not had any maintenance apart from scheduled oil changes - that is the way a car should last!

Our PHEV is still running as a hybrid. I'm not aware of any easy way to get the lifetime proportion of EV use, but it must be low. The car has something like 55,000 miles on the clock, does somewhere between 250 and 300 miles most weeks and that consists of two runs of about 100 miles each plus local commuting. There are no charging facilities at our weekday location, so it generally gets charged once per week and I hold it around 60 to 70% charged using Save. The long trips are at motorway speeds, so most of the time in parallel drive mode.

I don't have the gear to get a battery health figure for it, but subjectively the battery range has not changed much since the day it was delivered. But you have to understand that it was never anything like the advertised figure - I have posted my numbers here before. I did a test when the car was a few weeks old and got an EV range of 29 miles driving it like a milkfloat in absolutely ideal conditions with a range of about 24 miles in more realistic driving conditions in summer weather. In the middle of its first winter, I was seeing a range of about 16 miles. These days I reckon that I can get around 22 miles in the summer and 15 in the winter.

So it looks like your drive battery is still going well. To me, with your use, I think you will have no trouble reaching your goal of not having to spend extra money on not having to swap the drive battery out. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[Trex]

He countered with the irrefutable truth that our Mum loved him best!

:lol: :lol:

I am sorry if you did not mean it to be funny Dan but that to me is a classic.

 

[Trex]

We then crudely worked out that his leaf will cover 4.5km per Kw, the PHEV 3km per Kw (on EV) and the mighty Tesla a whopping 2.5km per Kw. So it all then comes down to what your typical journey is over the year to choose between the various options.

Gee the Tesla is low. :shock: I suppose it is the heavy battery or is it the owners accelerating hard because they can?

 

[greendwarf]

He might be mentioning about how the "Falcon" doors have sensors to stop them hitting the roof in car parks and such. It stops the opening as far as they normally would but
it make them more susceptible to hitting your head on the doors from what I can see.

So crawling in and out on your hands and knees must really make you very pleased with your purchase :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: