Secular and cycle deterioration as seen in the MUT-III.

[Trex]

Just had my PHEV yearly service done (its 4th) and got the drive battery report printed off at the same time as I have previously.

So I already had Evbatmon to compare it to. Now I stated previously I had 76.68% battery condition on my drive the other day (no reading glasses ) on Evbatmon. With reading glasses on it has now got better and is showing 78.68%. Yes I am embarrassed by my mistake. Do not need glasses for driving yet and I was in a hurry the other day.

Anyhow the battery report from the service shows Battery capacity secular deterioration 14.55% and Battery capacity cycle deterioration 10.76%.

Now as I have read about the Phev watchdog app here recently since returning so I downloaded it today and got 78.7%.

So Evbatmon 78.68% and Phev watchdog 78.7% close enough. Probably both using anko's decoding I am guessing.Not sure. Approx 21.3% degradation.

But it is not lining up with Mitsi's MUT. Anyone else notice this?

Anko you around? Have you seen this or has Mitsi changed their MUT recently?

Regards Trex.

edit sorted out discrepancy. See next post.
edit changed name to suit the topic more IMO.

 

[Trex]

Ok, just noticed battery current capacity on the report is 29.9Ah which lines up with the app.

Secular and cycle deterioration. Strange. :?

Wonder how they work them out? Will keep looking.

64,084ah Charge and Discharge intergrated current.

Is that on the app somewhere?

 

[anko]

Anko you around? Have you seen this or has Mitsi changed their MUT recently?

The Current Capacity Ah comes straight from the BMU. As you have seen now, that will be spot on. The capacity % is calculated by comparing Current Capacity Ah with Current Capacity when new. As this number is not known, Daniel Santos (WatchDog) uses 38 as a baseline value. I can only guess Jeremy does the same.

 

[Trex]

Anko you around? Have you seen this or has Mitsi changed their MUT recently?

The Current Capacity Ah comes straight from the BMU. As you have seen now, that will be spot on. The capacity % is calculated by comparing Current Capacity Ah with Current Capacity when new. As this number is not known, Daniel Santos (WatchDog) uses 38 as a baseline value. I can only guess Jeremy does the same.

Gday anko,

Yes thanks for that but I knew about the baseline of 38Ah.

But I am more wondering about Mitsi's MUT III report from the dealer.

I think you would have a copy from your dealer which is the BMU data list and

No 398 Battery capacity secular deterioration showing 14.55% on my PHEV.

No 399 Battery capacity cycle deterioration showing 10.76% " ".

Any ideas how they are working them out?

I think Battery capacity cycle deterioration is probably based on the number of cycles charged and discharged but Battery capacity secular deterioration still has me searching.

What do these show on your drive battery report from the MUT III if you not mind me asking?

Regards Trex.

 

[anko]

Not sure. Would have to try to find one. Soe day, as I a currently down with the flu.

When the car was much newer, I used a different tool to read out ECUs and it gave me:

398.BAT capa.secular 47.69 %
deterioration

399.BAT.capacity cylcle 109.42 %
deterioration

Looks like 399 is a ten fold off compared to yours.

The tool was not practical to use, so I sent it back.

 

[HappyHeyoka]

but Battery capacity secular deterioration still has me searching.

not sure if it's what you meant but:

Secular Sec"u*lar, a. (OE. secular, seculer. L. saecularis)
2. Pertaining to an age, or the progress of ages, or to a
long period of time; accomplished in a long progress of
time; as, secular inequality; the secular refrigeration of
the globe.
(1913 Webster)

so I'd guess: age related capacity deterioration.

 

[Trex]

but Battery capacity secular deterioration still has me searching.

not sure if it's what you meant but:

Secular Sec"u*lar, a. (OE. secular, seculer. L. saecularis)
2. Pertaining to an age, or the progress of ages, or to a
long period of time; accomplished in a long progress of
time; as, secular inequality; the secular refrigeration of
the globe.
(1913 Webster)

so I'd guess: age related capacity deterioration.

Hey HappyHeyoka good find.

In the little bit of searching I did religion came up regularly. :lol:

 

[HappyHeyoka]

In the little bit of searching I did religion came up regularly. :lol:

yeah, but change the search... looots of interesting but pretty new research.
for instance:
Aging mechanisms of Li-ion batteries : seen from an experimental and simulation point of view
which has a look at all the chemistries and the state the art; lots of tidbits (go for the summary at the end and work back)

 

[Trex]

In the little bit of searching I did religion came up regularly. :lol:

yeah, but change the search... looots of interesting but pretty new research.
for instance:
Aging mechanisms of Li-ion batteries : seen from an experimental and simulation point of view
which has a look at all the chemistries and the state the art; lots of tidbits (go for the summary at the end and work back)

The summary is 6 pages long.

Some good light reading there and even has some "pretty pictures". :lol:

Thanks. Will work my way through it.

 

[anko]

It has been discussed (if I am nor mistaken) how the Current Ah is calculated based on actual usage parameters and done theoretical model. Could these be 2 of the parameters?

 

[Trex]

It has been discussed (if I am nor mistaken) how the Current Ah is calculated based on actual usage parameters and done theoretical model. Could these be 2 of the parameters?

Not sure still looking into it.

Where did you find the number of charges done where you said in the other thread:

But my own tools tell me about 4900 or so. But these are also many partial charges.

Does it have an BMU data list number.?

Got a feeling I cannot find it because I am looking too hard. :lol:

 

[anko]

But my own tools tell me about 4900 or so. But these are also many partial charges.

Does it have an BMU data list number.?

Got a feeling I cannot find it because I am looking too hard. :lol:

No, it doen't. But it has a OBC data list number Kind a make sense as the OBC takes care of charging (at least A/C charging).

Set headers to 765
Send command 2101
From the response, the first two data bytes gives us the number of 100 volt (a.k.a. as 120 volt) charges.
The next two bytes give us the number of 200 volt (a.k.a. 240 volt) charges.
The next three data bytes give us the accumulated charge time on 100 volt
The next three databytes give us the accumulated charge time on 200 volt.

In order to be able to be able to retrieve bytes beyond number 4, you need to set up flow control. From the top of my head, you need to send:

ATSH765
ATFCSD300000
ATFCSH765
ATFCSM1
2101

And you will get something like this (the red numbers a re the actual data bytes):

766 10 17 61 01 00 00 07 45
766 21 00 00 00 02 CC 4C 00
766 22 00 0B 12 79 03 A3 98
766 23 00 5F 00 FF FF FF FF

 

[anko]

Little bit more nerd stuff :ugeek:

Send:

ATZ
ATH1
ATL1
ATS1
ATSH761
ATFCSH761
ATFCSD300000
ATFCSM1
2111

Response will look like this:

762 10 1E 61 11 00 23 18 B1
762 21 00 00 D2 B0 00 00 00
762 22 1C 00 23 18 B0 00 02
762 23 4F 20 41 74 42 CA 41
762 24 81 53 9D 3F FE FE FE

- Bytes A - D (00 23 18 B1) is decimal 2300081, which divided by 60 (minutes), then 24 (hours) and then 30 (days) gives 53,24 Months. Parameter "393. Sum total time back up" for my car is 53,13 Month. So, pretty close. Maybe if I don't use exactly 30 days per month ...
- Bytes E - H (00 00 D2 B0) is decimal 53936. Param "394. OBC integrated current" for my car is 53.95 * 1000 Ah. Looks like a winner.
- Bytes I - L (00 00 00 1C) is decimal 28. Param "395. Quick Charge integrated current" for my car is 0.3 * 1000 Ah. Looks like a winner.
- Bytes M - P (00 23 18 B0) is decimal 2300080, which divided by 60, then 24 and then 30 gives 53,24 Months. Parameter "396. Stop time back up" for my car is 53,13 Month.
- Bytes Q - T (00 02 4F 20) is decimal 151328. Param "397. Charge & discharge integrated current" for my car is 151328 Ah. Another winner.
- Bytes U - X (41 74 42 CA) is decimal 109813831441. Parameter "398. Battery capacity secular deterioration" for my car is reported as 109.81.
- 'Bytes Y - AB (41 81 53 9D) is decimal 1098994589. Parameter "399. Battery capacity cycle deterioration" for my car is reported as 109.90.

Not sure whether the representation of the numbers (especially 398 and 399) is correct.

Trex, it would be nice if you would be able to extract this data from your car, as you know the parameter values from your MUT3 report ....

And then the bigger question is: what does it mean, in terms of what we have left?

 

[Trex]

Little bit more nerd stuff :ugeek:

Send:

ATZ
ATH1
ATL1
ATS1
ATSH761
ATFCSH761
ATFCSD300000
ATFCSM1
2111

Response will look like this:

762 10 1E 61 11 00 23 18 B1
762 21 00 00 D2 B0 00 00 00
762 22 1C 00 23 18 B0 00 02
762 23 4F 20 41 74 42 CA 41
762 24 81 53 9D 3F FE FE FE

- Bytes A - D (00 23 18 B1) is decimal 2300081, which divided by 60 (minutes), then 24 (hours) and then 30 (days) gives 53,24 Months. Parameter "393. Sum total time back up" for my car is 53,13 Month. So, pretty close. Maybe if I don't use exactly 30 days per month ...
- Bytes E - H (00 00 D2 B0) is decimal 53936. Param "394. OBC integrated current" for my car is 53.95 * 1000 Ah. Looks like a winner.
- Bytes I - L (00 00 00 1C) is decimal 28. Param "395. Quick Charge integrated current" for my car is 0.3 * 1000 Ah. Looks like a winner.
- Bytes M - P (00 23 18 B0) is decimal 2300080, which divided by 60, then 24 and then 30 gives 53,24 Months. Parameter "396. Stop time back up" for my car is 53,13 Month.
- Bytes Q - T (00 02 4F 20) is decimal 151328. Param "397. Charge & discharge integrated current" for my car is 151328 Ah. Another winner.
- Bytes U - X (41 74 42 CA) is decimal 109813831441. Parameter "398. Battery capacity secular deterioration" for my car is reported as 109.81.
- 'Bytes Y - AB (41 81 53 9D) is decimal 1098994589. Parameter "399. Battery capacity cycle deterioration" for my car is reported as 109.90.

Not sure whether the representation of the numbers (especially 398 and 399) is correct.

Trex, it would be nice if you would be able to extract this data from your car, as you know the parameter values from your MUT3 report ....

And then the bigger question is: what does it mean, in terms of what we have left?

Ok will look into it. PHEV comes home tonight from Sydney so could look at it tomorrow.

Have not done AT programming since the 1990s (for a plotter in those days). What program are you using these days for communicating? Only have a bluetooth LX OBD-II.

 

[anko]

I typically use telnet to port 35000. But I have a WiFi version of the OBDLink that connects directly into my home WiFi when the car is parked at the house ....

I guess if your BT device is mapped to a com port, any terminal program that can talk to a COM port should do.

 

[Trex]

I typically use telnet to port 35000. But I have a WiFi version of the OBDLink that connects directly into my home WiFi when the car is parked at the house ....

I guess if your BT device is mapped to a com port, any terminal program that can talk to a COM port should do.

So I have the bluetooth LX OBD-II talking to my laptop using Bluetooth Serial Terminal but only get 2 lines of responses then get a STOPPED response instead of your 5.

Any suggestions or get another terminal program?

 

[anko]

There are a zillion of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terminal_emulators#Microsoft_Windows

I think I would try putty.

Typically, STOPPED is what you get when you send the next command before the previous command is fully executed. For example, when you send STMA (Monitor all traffic) and then send just an Enter, you will see STOPPED to. When you type 2114 (or 2115) and hit enter twice, this will already happen.

Have you tried just resending the last command (2114 or 2115) and see what it does?

 

[Trex]

Only have a minute anko but you forgot ATSP6 after ATZ.

762 10 1E 61 11 00 1F 1A B1
762 21 00 00 58 B0 00 00 00
762 22 00 00 1F 1A A9 00 00
762 23 FD F4 41 6A 0E 4F 41
762 24 2D 86 18 00 00 00 00

BMU battery report 6th Feb 2018

396 Stop time backup...................................47 months .....47.18 months from OBD now 2038281 decimal
397 Charge and Discharge intergrated current 64084 Ah..............65012 Ah from OBD now 65012
398 BAT capacity secular deterioation..................14.55%.............1097469510 decimal from OBD now
399 BAT capacity cycle deterioation.....................10.76%.............1093502488 decimal from OBD now

You want to check my conversions anko. Was in a hurry.

 

[anko]

Only have a minute anko but you forgot ATSP6 after ATZ.

Yeah, sorry for that. I did that on purpose, as mine works fine without it and I wanted to keep the 'code' as clean as possible. Maybe there is setting in non volatile memory in the adapter that has remembered the SP6 setting in my case.

You want to check my conversions anko.

Your conversion is spot on. Outcome for the last two does not match, unfortunately. Maybe the device I use for reference has wrong formula's itself and is presenting wrong values to me. Last time, it presented met with two times 109.something % (which matched my formulas) where you see 10.something and 14.something %. Must think this over a bit more.

 

[anko]

BTW: Seenthis? http://mmc-autoelectric.org.ua/manuals/eur/outlander/2014/54/html/M154945550009000ENG.HTM