Remote Electric Heating Question

[Graham15]

I have just recently ordered the Phev GX4h for delivery next month. Apologies if this question has been asked before but I've had a search and can't find the answer anywhere.

I was just curious to know more about the remote electric heating feature. I read that if the vehicle is left charging overnight you can remotely pre heat the Phev and it draws power from the mains supply rather than the battery. (Which is great) What I'm not sure of is how much the electric heater takes out of the battery without it being plugged into an EV charging point? For instance, assuming the car wasn't near a charge point in very cold weather and I needed to remotely pre warm the car to defrost it in advance, how much would it take out of the battery? Or more importantly how much would it reduce the electric only milege range? Or does the petrol generator kick in remotely if it's not attached to a charging point?

Also does anyone know roughly how long it would take for the electrical hot water system to defrost the windows in sub zero temperatures?

 

[maby]

The petrol engine will never turn on unless the car is powered up in drive mode - it would be far too dangerous to allow the car to start the engine unattended - it has no way of knowing if it is parked in a confined space where the CO could kill people.

 

[paa451843]

The electric heater (or cooler) always runs for 10 minutes as a maximum, or intil you open a door.

 

[ufo]

I have just recently ordered the Phev GX4h for delivery next month. Apologies if this question has been asked before but I've had a search and can't find the answer anywhere.

I was just curious to know more about the remote electric heating feature. I read that if the vehicle is left charging overnight you can remotely pre heat the Phev and it draws power from the mains supply rather than the battery. (Which is great) What I'm not sure of is how much the electric heater takes out of the battery without it being plugged into an EV charging point? For instance, assuming the car wasn't near a charge point in very cold weather and I needed to remotely pre warm the car to defrost it in advance, how much would it take out of the battery? Or more importantly how much would it reduce the electric only milege range? Or does the petrol generator kick in remotely if it's not attached to a charging point?

Also does anyone know roughly how long it would take for the electrical hot water system to defrost the windows in sub zero temperatures?

It does not draw power from mains supply. It draws from the drive battery but because the battery level drops down when you start heating, it starts charging the battery from mains supply if it is plugged in according to what I observed. I usually get 52 km EV range displayed after full charge. Making sure it is fully charged, I stood by PHEV while it was plugged in and turned on heating using my phone and cut off mains supply as soon as heating stopped (takes 10 mins each run) and checked the remaining EV range it was 47 kms. Then I fully charged it again, Ev range came up to 52 kms again. Plugged it off, turned on heating same way again. When heating stopped after 10 mins, checked remaining EV range, it was 47 kms again. So this tells me that heating uses the battery no matter what. If it is plugged in, it starts charging the battery but the charge is way to slow to catch up with the consumption of energy by heating. If you want to have full Ev range and also want to preheat, you have to keep it plugged in approximately 30 mins after heating stops. ICE (petrol engine) never kicks in.

 

[jdsx]

Thanks ufo that's very interesting.
As I live up a fairly steep hill, my first mile or so in the morning is mostly regen, so I will plan to end the charge at the same time as pre-heat ends, and hopefully the small amount of range which is knocked off by pre-heating will magically reappear thanks to regen :mrgreen: . The only slight problem is that as we don't use Phoebe to commute, we don't have a 'fixed' start time, but I guess we'll have to get used to it. I'll let you know if it works in a couple of weeks!

 

[ufo]

Thanks ufo that's very interesting.
As I live up a fairly steep hill, my first mile or so in the morning is mostly regen, so I will plan to end the charge at the same time as pre-heat ends, and hopefully the small amount of range which is knocked off by pre-heating will magically reappear thanks to regen :mrgreen: . The only slight problem is that as we don't use Phoebe to commute, we don't have a 'fixed' start time, but I guess we'll have to get used to it. I'll let you know if it works in a couple of weeks!

In terms of not having a fixed starting time, I have the same problem some days of the week. In that case what I do is to start heating manually on the remote app approximately 10 - 15 mins before I intend to go out. Obviously this doesn't work out all the time, such as I once got caught on the phone for a long time and by the time I got to the PHEV it had already considerably cooled down but it was nevertheless not as cold as outside.
About regeneration, I would still be bit cautious in your case because what I also noticed is that, while there is no regenerative braking available with fully charge battery, the regenerative braking is not too effective either when EV range is close to its maximum. Closer you are to your max EV range less effective it is. After a threshold point, it then starts to be fully effective but I couldn’t figure out what that threshold figure is. My estimation it is somewhere between 45 to 50 km EV range based on max 52 km EV range available. Obviously you have to sort out these figures in miles depending on tour max EV range but hey that's half of the fun isn't it

 

[maddogsetc]

If you want to have full Ev range and also want to preheat, you have to keep it plugged in approximately 30 mins after heating stops. ICE (petrol engine) never kicks in.

I had been wondering about this myself, so thanks UFO for answering my question before I'd actually asked! Seems a bit self defeating sadly but at least we could use this information to estimate the power drawn by the heating (someone cleverer than me needed here though!)

Something else I was unclear about is how sophisticated is the control system? ie. does it sense cabin / ambient temperature and not preheat if it's not needed / switch off when up to a set point? And if so what set point does it use - is it a fixed temperature or does it use the setting of the A/C system? The latter seems obvious but would mean that you'd need to remember to set it appropriately the night before. Or is this all assuming too high a level of sophistication?

Also, I know that it switches off when a door is opened (why?) but what about the boot?

Mine worked for the first time this morning but I can't say it was especially toasty, but now I know it only runs for 10 mins I'll adjust my start time.

 

[jaapv]

I have just recently ordered the Phev GX4h for delivery next month. Apologies if this question has been asked before but I've had a search and can't find the answer anywhere.

I was just curious to know more about the remote electric heating feature. I read that if the vehicle is left charging overnight you can remotely pre heat the Phev and it draws power from the mains supply rather than the battery. (Which is great) What I'm not sure of is how much the electric heater takes out of the battery without it being plugged into an EV charging point? For instance, assuming the car wasn't near a charge point in very cold weather and I needed to remotely pre warm the car to defrost it in advance, how much would it take out of the battery? Or more importantly how much would it reduce the electric only milege range? Or does the petrol generator kick in remotely if ;,it's not attached to a charging point?

Also does anyone know roughly how long it would take for the electrical hot water system to defrost the windows in sub zero temperatures?

It does not draw power from mains supply. It draws from the drive battery but because the battery level drops down when you start heating, it starts charging the battery from mains supply if it is plugged in according to what I observed. I usually get 52 km EV range displayed after full charge. Making sure it is fully charged, I stood by PHEV while it was plugged in and turned on heating using my phone and cut off mains supply as soon as heating stopped (takes 10 mins each run) and checked the remaining EV range it was 47 kms. Then I fully charged it again, Ev range came up to 52 kms again. Plugged it off, turned on heating same way again. When heating stopped after 10 mins, checked remaining EV range, it was 47 kms again. So this tells me that heating uses the battery no matter what. If it is plugged in, it starts charging the battery but the charge is way to slow to catch up with the consumption of energy by heating. If you want to have full Ev range and also want to preheat, you have to keep it plugged in approximately 30 mins after heating stops. ICE (petrol engine) never kicks in.

Actually the expected range does not tell you about the state of the battery as such. The computer takes the use history into account and the expected use. It notes you have been using the electric heating and adjusts the expected mileage downwards, even if the battery is full. You can get the same down and up jump in expected range by operating the AC switch.
The expected range indication is not a battery condition meter.
According to Mitsubishi the heating draws from the mains.

 

[user 258]

Hi,
I actually tested the pre-heat for the first time today ready for winter.
After 9 minutes pre-heating I went to the car, I could hear a fan type noise from the car so it was working, however, the charging LED was flashing (indicating not charging) and my power meter (which the charging cable was plugged into) showed the car was drawing no power from the mains.
This supports that pre-heat uses the battery and then when the battery charge drops below a certain level starts charging again. I'm quite disappointed. Mitsubishi state that using pre-heat draws from the mains if plugged in. My sample of one shows this not always to be true.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[user 258]

Something else I was unclear about is how sophisticated is the control system? ie. does it sense cabin / ambient temperature and not preheat if it's not needed / switch off when up to a set point? And if so what set point does it use - is it a fixed temperature or does it use the setting of the A/C system? The latter seems obvious but would mean that you'd need to remember to set it appropriately the night before. Or is this all assuming too high a level of sophistication?

From what I remember reading the pre-heat (or cool) operates as per the timer and ignores what the climate was set to. I don't think it has any intelligence at all. It simply operates at maxiumum heating or cooling for the 10 minutes then switches off.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[PHEVclub]

I am confused.

This morning I used the pre-heat APP function twice. When I got into the car I noticed the range had dropped. However the instant you start the pre-heat from the APP it also indicates that its charging again. After the normal school run with the heater off however the range left was exactly the same. I had thought that the pre-heat when connected to the charge point draws all power required from the wall charger. That's what was explained to me from the dealer when I asked them. One thing that would be nice would be a facility to set the temperature.. just an additional thought for the APP.

 

[jaapv]

if you start from cold below about 10 Celsius the ICE will start up regardless, even with a a full battery in order to heat up the rdiator to provide warm water to the heating of the interior and battery. In other words, the car will always start the engine in the morning in winter.
Preheating will only shorten the period that the engine is running (press ECO too).
Once again, the range indication is not a battery condition meter. It is a predictive indication based on the way you are using - and have been using- the car related to the state of charge.
If you have been driving hard and then slow down you will see the range go up after while despite using up the battery charge in between.
I have seen the range go up to 112 Km after coming down an Alpine passroad. Did I drive 112 Km EV after that? Rather not.

 

[maddogsetc]

Another question on this then - why do we have a demist option? Surely if we need pre-heat we also need demist? But on the App its one or the other (with cool as a third option). Does pre-heat also demist perhaps?

This question of where the power comes from for preheating - if the power comes from the battery then that's another cock-up by Mitsi in my view, UNLESS the car can actually charge fast enough not to deplete the battery (but in that case why limit it to 10 mins?). If you need 30 mins to recover the charge lost in 10 mins of pre-heat I'm not sure I'll bother most days.

And turning it off just because the door is open? Never mind why, but does it restart once the door is shut again? Otherwise, as I see it the car will have just preheated nicely, before my kids open the boot and doors to chuck their school bags in and the preheat goes off. Even if they do shut them straight away (and this is teenagers we are talking about :roll: ) all my lovely heat has gone out the doors and there's no more to warm it up again :?.

 

[maby]

Another question on this then - why do we have a demist option? Surely if we need pre-heat we also need demist? But on the App its one or the other (with cool as a third option). Does pre-heat also demist perhaps?

This question of where the power comes from for preheating - if the power comes from the battery then that's another cock-up by Mitsi in my view, UNLESS the car can actually charge fast enough not to deplete the battery (but in that case why limit it to 10 mins?). If you need 30 mins to recover the charge lost in 10 mins of pre-heat I'm not sure I'll bother most days.

And turning it off just because the door is open? Never mind why, but does it restart once the door is shut again? Otherwise, as I see it the car will have just preheated nicely, before my kids open the boot and doors to chuck their school bags in and the preheat goes off. Even if they do shut them straight away (and this is teenagers we are talking about :roll: ) all my lovely heat has gone out the doors and there's no more to warm it up again :?.

The power has to be able to come from the battery while the car is in motion, so it is just simpler to get it from the battery all the time. In practice, I guess that the true situation is that the battery is effectively float charging and when you turn on the heater, it simply draws from the battery/charger combination. The fact that 10 minutes of pre-heat takes 30 minutes worth of charge out of the battery is an indication that the charger is not able to source the current drawn by the heater - it comes from the battery, or it simply does not work.

 

[jaapv]

It depends - was this charging @ 10A? I seem to recall that the car really needs 16A to have the heater draw fully from the mains.

 

[user 258]

Another question on this then - why do we have a demist option? Surely if we need pre-heat we also need demist? But on the App its one or the other (with cool as a third option). Does pre-heat also demist perhaps?

I think the only difference will be which vent outlets the car uses. Maybe just using the screen vents for demist.

This question of where the power comes from for preheating - if the power comes from the battery then that's another cock-up by Mitsi in my view, UNLESS the car can actually charge fast enough not to deplete the battery (but in that case why limit it to 10 mins?). If you need 30 mins to recover the charge lost in 10 mins of pre-heat I'm not sure I'll bother most days.

I agree but Jaapv has a very good point about how much power the car can draw from the charger. The heater is 4KW which equates to about 17A.
It doesn't explain why on my test (at 10A) NO power was being taken from the mains though.

And turning it off just because the door is open? Never mind why, but does it restart once the door is shut again?

No. I guess that once the car has been accessed it figures you can turn things on manually if still required. I expect it turns off for safety once something is open. My previous Plug-in Prius had a precool option operated by a button on the keyfob, that also turned off as soon as a door was opened.

Kind regards,
Mark

 

[jaapv]

I agree but Jaapv has a very good point about how much power the car can draw from the charger. The heater is 4KW which equates to about 17A.
It doesn't explain why on my test (at 10A) NO power was being taken from the mains though.


Kind regards,
Mark

The car does communicate with the charger/charge point. It is quite possible ( but I certainly don't know this for a fact) that it will simply not attempt to charge/draw electricity if insufficient power is available.

 

[user 258]

I agree but Jaapv has a very good point about how much power the car can draw from the charger. The heater is 4KW which equates to about 17A.
It doesn't explain why on my test (at 10A) NO power was being taken from the mains though.


Kind regards,
Mark

The car does communicate with the charger/charge point. It is quite possible ( but I certainly don't know this for a fact) that it will simply not attempt to charge/draw electricity if insufficient power is available.

Hi,
There was the normal (upto) 13A available from the standard charging cable. If it was drawing 4KW from the battery for preheat there was nothing to stop it drawing upto 3KW from the mains via the charger. I will test again in case it was a one off issue.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[jaapv]

I don't think it works that way... I think that it ascertains if the power it wants to draw , be it 10A or 16A(down to 5A iirc) is available, if not, it won't open its charging port.
For heating it would demand the full 16A or switch to the battery, but no division between te two.

 

[user 258]

I don't think it works that way... I think that it ascertains if the power it wants to draw , be it 10A or 16A(down to 5A iirc) is available, if not, it won't open its charging port.
For heating it would demand the full 16A or switch to the battery, but no division between te two.

OK, that makes sense with what others have posted. In my case, I would expect that as the battery drains below a threshold it would start the battery charging process again. Obviously, it didn't drop low enough on my test. This might be another reason to get a 16A charging point fitted (detached garage and quite some upheavel).
Kind regards,
Mark