"Proper" 4wd tyres can make a difference IMHO.

[Trex]

Ok fellow Phevers I hope you can view these.

Click on image to watch the movies.

Now the first movie is the old tyres that come with PHEV.



Now notice here how turning the steering on the front wheel can get you out of cross axle problems.

This movie is with the new tyres I just put on the PHEV.



My son did not need to turn the steering wheel on these new tyres.

Again I will say you need to click on the images to see the movies.

Regards Trex.

 

[pasquinade]

Is tha' Ahstraalia? Can't see them sheila!

Now more seriously... don't know whether to laugh or cry with the videos... yes tires did make a diference but does the phev really get stuck in such a terrain? Perhaps next is to increase the travel of the shocks to ensure wheel contact... or buy a wrangler

Enjoy your summer... here's freezing.

 

[zzcoopej]

Ok fellow Phevers I hope you can view these.

Nice demo, however I think there are too many variables (eg slightly different angles, previous pass altering terrain & grip, speed, tyre pressure etc) to conclude ONLY the tyres got you through?

What were your settings - 4wd Lock, Traction control etc?

 

[Trex]

Is tha' Ahstraalia? Can't see them sheila!

Now more seriously... don't know whether to laugh or cry with the videos... yes tires did make a diference but does the phev really get stuck in such a terrain? Perhaps next is to increase the travel of the shocks to ensure wheel contact... or buy a wrangler

Enjoy your summer... here's freezing.

We set it up to fail. Kept making the 2 mounds of dirt higher until the travel of the suspension reached its limits.

Thanks. Will be summer over there soon enough.

 

[Trex]

Ok fellow Phevers I hope you can view these.

Nice demo, however I think there are too many variables (eg slightly different angles, previous pass altering terrain & grip, speed, tyre pressure etc) to conclude ONLY the tyres got you through?

What were your settings - 4wd Lock, Traction control etc?

You are kidding are you not?

I can even hear the difference in the traction of the old and new tires. :roll:

No settings touched and both at 35psi.

 

[zzcoopej]

No settings touched and both at 35psi.

Considering the discussion in other threads, it would have been interesting to see if 4wd lock instead of turning the steering could have worked for the old tyres.

You're kidding

Well, for a start your old stock rubber had done 45,000K vs the brand new Yokohama Geolandar ATS G012 225/55r18 98h., that alone makes the comparison a bit unscientific? Please don't take it the wrong way, I was thinking of heading out into the back yard to do some experiments so hats off for actually doing it before & after. I'm just playing the devil's advocate in peer reviewing your findings

New tyre spec is here - http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2964

 

[Yoran]

No mention of which kind of tires

 

[Trex]

Considering the discussion in other threads, it would have been interesting to see if 4wd lock instead of turning the steering could have worked for the old tyres.

Sorry zzcoopej been tied up. Will now try to explain the tests better.

My sons mostly run these tests, but I kept an eye on them to make sure they were being fair to both tyres.

I did jump in the PHEV before they started filming with the old tyres on and checked 4wd Lock. No difference and was not surprised. In low speed series mode, I think, the PHEV is split 50/50 4wd anyway. So from then on 4wd Lock button was not used.

Now what those movies I have posted are not showing are the front driver's wheel is also spinning as is typical of a cross-axle traction problem. I do have some "film" showing from the other side of the PHEV but shows a little too much for my liking of my location . Open forums and all that. Could try to somehow crop that out and try and show it if people need to see it. Anyone know how to crop a movie?

Well, for a start your old stock rubber had done 45,000K vs the brand new Yokohama Geolandar ATS G012 225/55r18 98h., that alone makes the comparison a bit unscientific? Please don't take it the wrong way, I was thinking of heading out into the back yard to do some experiments so hats off for actually doing it before & after. I'm just playing the devil's advocate in peer reviewing your findings

New tyre spec is here - http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2964

Yes that is a good point about the old rubber. But when comparing the tread pattern of both (I think I found a picture of the old Toyos)




Do you really think the Yokohama Geolandar ATS would not have better traction? After all the AT in ATS stands for All Terrain I am pretty sure.

Now as a side note my wife really likes them as she says they feel good to drive and softer over the bumps. So I am in the good books again.

ps those new Toyos are dearer than Yokohama Geolandar ATS from what I can see.

 

[Trex]

No mention of which kind of tires

Sorry in a hurry and forgot to show. Yokohama Geolandar ATS G012 225/55r18 98h mentioned in this post.
http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2964

 

[pasquinade]

By the way Trex, did you happen to see the TPM sensors when you had the tires changed?

I am almost 100% sure this is a direct TPM (actual sensors) vehicle (2016 version), so I ordered these from ebay and am waiting for them to arrive:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TPMS-Sensors-4-TyreSure-Tyre-Pressure-Valve-for-Mitsubishi-Outlander-14-EOP-/162218110980?hash=item25c4f3f004:g:fa4AAOSwOyJX6Tel
I talked with the guy and he claims these are PHEV compatible.

Great if you could confirm their existence

Hope they'll work as this has given me a couple of headaches and not many answers (have called 4 different dealers and only one seemed to know what these were)... Still not 100% sure if I'll be able to program them, but the one dealer that seemed to know about these claimed he would do it for ~30 euros.

 

[pasquinade]

Hi Trex,

Your videos have been screaming in the back of my head and I've been thinking about the apparent lack of suspension movement (to ensure proper traction on tires.

From what I understand in this and other videos, the PHEV seems very prone to being cross axled. Could it be due to an over-stiff sway bar? I think this is a possible explanation for some of the problems people have been having in different videos, and it should be relatively simple to test... I have seen some videos today where people installed quick disconnects in true offroaders so if this is the issue perhaps there might be a simple solution.

A simple test will be to lift the car on one side and measure "wheel vertical travel" (sway bar fully activated due to all weight on other side), then lower it and lift both wheels on one axle (sway bar not doing anything on that axle) and measure "wheel vertical travel". If the two values are very different it might be worth pursuing and try to actually disconnect a sway bar link (otherwise it will be due to the actual suspension mechanism). If I get my hands on a second jack I'll give this a try...

Of course I mean overstiff for off-road applications (I heard people complain that on road it is still too soft ).

Any thoughts?

 

[greendwarf]

By the way Trex, did you happen to see the TPM sensors when you had the tires changed?

I am almost 100% sure this is a direct TPM (actual sensors) vehicle (2016 version), so I ordered these from ebay and am waiting for them to arrive:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TPMS-Sensors-4-TyreSure-Tyre-Pressure-Valve-for-Mitsubishi-Outlander-14-EOP-/162218110980?hash=item25c4f3f004:g:fa4AAOSwOyJX6Tel
I talked with the guy and he claims these are PHEV compatible.

Great if you could confirm their existence

Hope they'll work as this has given me a couple of headaches and not many answers (have called 4 different dealers and only one seemed to know what these were)... Still not 100% sure if I'll be able to program them, but the one dealer that seemed to know about these claimed he would do it for ~30 euros.

They are certainly not the same (but similar) as those I bought from Mitsu for my 2014 PHEV - apparently made by Continental. I don't remember paying as much as £40 each, either - but it was 2 years ago :lol: AFAIK the dealer has to do the programming, you can't.

 

[Steepndeep]

Hi TREX

I think we have discussed "proper way to get maximum traction" in other forums but it is nice to see peoples videos so I'll stick with this one.

You have created a crossaxel situation and we know that without difflock you will get stuck, if both spinning wheels are in the air. If they have only a little bit of traction of course a better pair of wheels will help, as you have clearly shown

One way of not getting in a crossaxel situation is to not drive too slow as you can be in one crossaxel situation for the maximum distance=wheelbase. Then you are out of it. I know you cannot drive fast in really narrow or bumpy offroad situations so this was just stating that too slow is not good either

Next question is, so I am stuck, what now? I cannot change tyres immediately :mrgreen:

I managed to find a small parkinglot covered in ice over lunch and tried the two modes; AntiSpin on or off. Unfortunatley the place was fairly level so could not get really stuck. AntiSpin off does as advertised; the wheels are spinning and I slowly get out of the ice. AntiSpin on also does as advertised, breaks the spinning wheel and gives better traction so I get out of the ice much quicker. But as this breaks a wheel you loose power (not so with difflock) so it may not work at all in very hilly conditions or with a heavy trailer.

Next test is a week from now in the mountains where I will see if AntiSpin on and really flooring the accelerator can keep me going in steep snowy inclines

 

[jaapv]

I can tell you now- it won't. (Sent from the Passo Campolongo in the Italian Alps. Yes it is snowing right now)

 

[anko]

AntiSpin on also does as advertised, breaks the spinning wheel and gives better traction so I get out of the ice much quicker. But as this breaks a wheel you loose power (not so with difflock) so it may not work at all in very hilly conditions or with a heavy trailer.

Being pedantic, IMHO it does not. I believe breaking one wheel increases the gear ratio between the e-motor and the other wheel with a factor 2 and thus reduces the amount of torque on that axle by 50%. But braking one wheel does not reduce the amount of available power.

 

[Steepndeep]

I waited for you to jump in

It depends on how the ABS/Antispin system works. If you brake and stop the spinning wheel totally, then you are 100% correct. If you on the other hand have a system which breaks the spinning wheel down to the exact same speed as the other wheel you have no torque change but loose 50% of the power. I think the system is somewhere in between, i.e. break quickly, release, brake quickly, release etc. So it comes down to the actual implementation of the AntiSpin system. I think though that the end result is more towards your statement than mine

So if you have a steep incline and lots of snow/mud you need all power. Turn AntiSpin off and go up as fast as you can. High speed means very short (in time) cross-axel situations. If you don't make it, get better tyres, or better car.

If you have low incline, then you have plenty of power. Play with AntiSpin on or off depending of conditions. But do not go extremely slow. If you need to go slow, get a car with locking diffs.

I am just going to try that next weekend and see what happens.

 

[Trex]

By the way Trex, did you happen to see the TPM sensors when you had the tires changed?

I am almost 100% sure this is a direct TPM (actual sensors) vehicle (2016 version), so I ordered these from ebay and am waiting for them to arrive:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TPMS-Sensors-4-TyreSure-Tyre-Pressure-Valve-for-Mitsubishi-Outlander-14-EOP-/162218110980?hash=item25c4f3f004:g:fa4AAOSwOyJX6Tel
I talked with the guy and he claims these are PHEV compatible.

Great if you could confirm their existence

Hope they'll work as this has given me a couple of headaches and not many answers (have called 4 different dealers and only one seemed to know what these were)... Still not 100% sure if I'll be able to program them, but the one dealer that seemed to know about these claimed he would do it for ~30 euros.

Sorry pasquinade I do not use TPM sensors on my wheels as they are not required in Australia yet.

 

[Trex]

Hi Trex,

Your videos have been screaming in the back of my head and I've been thinking about the apparent lack of suspension movement (to ensure proper traction on tires.

From what I understand in this and other videos, the PHEV seems very prone to being cross axled. Could it be due to an over-stiff sway bar? I think this is a possible explanation for some of the problems people have been having in different videos, and it should be relatively simple to test... I have seen some videos today where people installed quick disconnects in true offroaders so if this is the issue perhaps there might be a simple solution.

A simple test will be to lift the car on one side and measure "wheel vertical travel" (sway bar fully activated due to all weight on other side), then lower it and lift both wheels on one axle (sway bar not doing anything on that axle) and measure "wheel vertical travel". If the two values are very different it might be worth pursuing and try to actually disconnect a sway bar link (otherwise it will be due to the actual suspension mechanism). If I get my hands on a second jack I'll give this a try...

Of course I mean overstiff for off-road applications (I heard people complain that on road it is still too soft ).

Any thoughts?

"Could it be due to an over-stiff sway bar?" Could be as when one of my good friends bought a Toyota V8 diesel Landcruiser an option was from memory was a special disconnect sway bar.

Do not know what it like over there but here there is a huge industry set up here for the 4wd market. So many options to spend your money on. :? :lol:

 

[Trex]

By the way Trex, did you happen to see the TPM sensors when you had the tires changed?

I am almost 100% sure this is a direct TPM (actual sensors) vehicle (2016 version), so I ordered these from ebay and am waiting for them to arrive:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TPMS-Sensors-4-TyreSure-Tyre-Pressure-Valve-for-Mitsubishi-Outlander-14-EOP-/162218110980?hash=item25c4f3f004:g:fa4AAOSwOyJX6Tel
I talked with the guy and he claims these are PHEV compatible.

Great if you could confirm their existence

Hope they'll work as this has given me a couple of headaches and not many answers (have called 4 different dealers and only one seemed to know what these were)... Still not 100% sure if I'll be able to program them, but the one dealer that seemed to know about these claimed he would do it for ~30 euros.

They are certainly not the same (but similar) as those I bought from Mitsu for my 2014 PHEV - apparently made by Continental. I don't remember paying as much as £40 each, either - but it was 2 years ago :lol: AFAIK the dealer has to do the programming, you can't.

Thanks for the helping him as I know nothing about TPM sensors. Or should it be like Sgt Shultz, "I know Nuthfing".

 

[Trex]

Hi TREX

You have created a crossaxel situation and we know that without difflock you will get stuck, if both spinning wheels are in the air.

Hi Steepndeep, (Love that Avatar )

Actually one of the biggest thing I wanted to show people here was even if you get into cross axle traction problems you are NOT necessarily stuck. By turning your steering on the front wheels your can quite often get out of that problem. Which shows up in that first video I posted with the old tyres. That's an old "trick" taught to me by my "old man" (father) when I was a kid. ie he demoed it while he was driving in the bush here to me. But I have hardly ever seen anyone use that "trick" until I saw that Allan Whiting video I posted recently. And believe it not he drove similar to my dad. Taking good lines and not busting the vehicle was my dad's motto. Slow and steady sometimes wins the race over some terrain. Other terrain more momentum is needed.

Speaking of dad, he and his brother were in the Redex Car Rally or the The Round Australia Trial in the 1950s which famous people like Gelignite Jack Murray (who he did not like which was all to do with the "gelignite" of his name ) also drove. They were coming 2nd until when his brother, who was driving that stage ( they took turns ) near Darwin, broke the back axle of their car, a VW Beetle ( he used to give his brother heaps over that episode). Just a little bit of trivia some aussies or others might like to know.

One way of not getting in a crossaxel situation is to not drive too slow as you can be in one crossaxel situation for the maximum distance=wheelbase. Then you are out of it. I know you cannot drive fast in really narrow or bumpy offroad situations so this was just stating that too slow is not good either

But you know we went slow on those tests for a good reason. I wanted the car to fail to make a point or 2 points actually.

1. Better tyres make a difference.
2. Turning the steering wheel can get you out of trouble in cross axle traction problem.

Next question is, so I am stuck, what now? I cannot change tyres immediately :mrgreen:

Well I would say BEFORE you get stuck with those on road tyres go to the back of the PHEV and get your tyre chains and put them on your wheels. :mrgreen: After getting stuck there are lots of tricks to try but the biggest piece of advice I can tell anyone is not keep spinning your wheels and making a bad situation worse.

I managed to find a small parkinglot covered in ice over lunch and tried the two modes; AntiSpin on or off. Unfortunatley the place was fairly level so could not get really stuck. AntiSpin off does as advertised; the wheels are spinning and I slowly get out of the ice. AntiSpin on also does as advertised, breaks the spinning wheel and gives better traction so I get out of the ice much quicker. But as this breaks a wheel you loose power (not so with difflock) so it may not work at all in very hilly conditions or with a heavy trailer.

Next test is a week from now in the mountains where I will see if AntiSpin on and really flooring the accelerator can keep me going in steep snowy inclines

The best 4wd drivers I have physically seen in action, like my dad and I mean it was a pleasure to watch him in action, try never to spin their wheels in a tricky 4wd situation. They pick their driving lines, use momentum when needed but also look after their vehicle so as not to bust something. Do not get me wrong dad could drive it fast, as he was a rally car driver, but he knew how to also protect the vehicle. Something he kept trying to knock into my thick skull. :lol:

But spinning the wheels to prove a point is allowed.