Prius Plug-in owner considering the swap to Outlander PHEV

[user 258]

Hi,

Test drove the PHEV yesterday and was impressed in every aspect except one. I did a 16 mile route purely in battery save mode so I could compare mpg to my plug-in when the battery is depleted on longer journeys.

I did the same test route in my Prius in HV mode and got 79mpg. In the PHEV I got 36.5mpg. Mitsubishi quote 48mpg with depleted battery. Quite disappointed. I expected noticeably worse consumption than the Prius, but not this bad.

I noticed that in the PHEV it would frequentley keep the engine running even when slowing down and stopped at lights. The dealer could not explain this behaviour but it can only reduce mpg. Incidentially, the PHEV increased its EV range by 2 miles at the end of the route whereas the Prius had lost 0.4 mile range.

Any comments as to why the engines stays on (not always, but frequently) when not required?

Kind regards,
Mark

 

[jaapv]

Because you were in save mode. The car behaves like a series hybrid then, but that is only efficient on the motorway. Normally you would drive it in eco mode only in town and switch to save when driving in traffic over 50 MpH.
Don’t forget you are driving a 1800 Kg car with a large frontal area. Basically it is a fully electric car with a range extender. Don’t use save or charge in normal urban conditions. Otherwise the ICE will keep running to drive the generator and top up the battery.
The most economical way to use it is to drive as fully electrical as you can. I.e. commuting for less than 30 miles and recharging at your work.

 

[user 258]

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I agree with (almost) everything you say. However, the test route I selected was only about 3 miles urban, about 4 miles 50mph motorway, and the remainder was 70mph motorway so I think it is a reasonable comparison for a typical long distance journey.

My conclusion is simply that Mitsubishi have some optimisation work to do about when to shut the engine down. That the engine sometimes ran when slowing and stationary and that the battery range increased by 2 miles supports this. If the engine was switched off when not required then the economy would have improved and still kept the EV range the same.

As a plus, on the test drive, I was impressed with how often parrallel hybrid mode was used (since it is the most efficient) at speeds over about 40mph.

I am taking the car for a full afternoon test drive in a couple of days which I am looking forward to.

kind regards,
Mark

 

[Fragge]

But I think you have to take a new testdrive and not run it in save mode. If you use normal mode the engine always shuts down at slower speeds and while stationary.

 

[user 258]

Hi,

My extended test drive will start with a fully charged battery and be totally urban in order to see how much actual range I get. I am expecting about 24-25 miles since I get about 12 miles from my Prius Plug-in. A test review also mentioned they got 24.5 miles on test.

Once the battery is depleted I will be repeating the original test drive again three times (which is mostly motorway). Firstly with a fully depleted battery (I am expecting similar operation to battery save), secondly with a little charge but in battery save mode, and finally in battery save mode but I will manually put the car into electric mode when I see fit in order to stop the engine running when I don't see a point but while being careful to not reduce or increase the battery charge. It is important for me to know accurately what consumption I will get on longer journeys.

I will also be interested to see how it copes with hills in electric mode. There is only 60KW (80bhp) available from the battery and if any more power is required then the engine must be started. The Prius also has a 60KW electric motor and there are a few hills it is slow to accelerate up on battery alone so I am expecting the Outlander PHEV to struggle even more since it is much heavier. I don't really want the engine to start on short journeys and hope that with a gentle foot I can ascend the hills reasonably on battery.

Again, I like pretty much everything about the car and I'm just making sure I can live with the car on a daily basis if I buy one.

kind regards,
Mark

 

[maddogsetc]

Hi avensys, I like your very systematic approach to the test drive. My dealer was only allocating a couple of hours per person as the demand here is so high he can't let it go for any longer. Sat with me too throughout. Compare that to the 'take it away and play with it, bring back sometime' approach of your typical BMW/Merc dealer' :shock:

Will be very interested to hear what you find

 

[jaapv]

Hi,

My extended test drive will start with a fully charged battery and be totally urban in order to see how much actual range I get. I am expecting about 24-25 miles since I get about 12 miles from my Prius Plug-in. A test review also mentioned they got 24.5 miles on test.

Once the battery is depleted I will be repeating the original test drive again three times (which is mostly motorway). Firstly with a fully depleted battery (I am expecting similar operation to battery save), secondly with a little charge but in battery save mode, and finally in battery save mode but I will manually put the car into electric mode when I see fit in order to stop the engine running when I don't see a point but while being careful to not reduce or increase the battery charge. It is important for me to know accurately what consumption I will get on longer journeys.

I will also be interested to see how it copes with hills in electric mode. There is only 60KW (80bhp) available from the battery and if any more power is required then the engine must be started. The Prius also has a 60KW electric motor and there are a few hills it is slow to accelerate up on battery alone so I am expecting the Outlander PHEV to struggle even more since it is much heavier. I don't really want the engine to start on short journeys and hope that with a gentle foot I can ascend the hills reasonably on battery.

Again, I like pretty much everything about the car and I'm just making sure I can live with the car on a daily basis if I buy one.

kind regards,
Mark

You cannot put the car into fully electric mode manually. The ICE will always kick in as soon as you need more power or exceed 70 MpH
In my experience the car runs at its most economical if you set the regeneration to 5 in urban areas, switch to save and regeneration 0 on the motorway, set it to eco, and let the computer do the hard work (like thinking :mrgreen: ).
Mitsubishi advises to drive in charge mode in the mountains.
Over here the car comes with a one-day training to learn to drive it optimally. I’m not sure that you will obtain a meaningful result this way.

 

[user 258]

Hi,

My extended test drive will start with a fully charged battery and be totally urban in order to see how much actual range I get. I am expecting about 24-25 miles since I get about 12 miles from my Prius Plug-in. A test review also mentioned they got 24.5 miles on test.

Once the battery is depleted I will be repeating the original test drive again three times (which is mostly motorway). Firstly with a fully depleted battery (I am expecting similar operation to battery save), secondly with a little charge but in battery save mode, and finally in battery save mode but I will manually put the car into electric mode when I see fit in order to stop the engine running when I don't see a point but while being careful to not reduce or increase the battery charge. It is important for me to know accurately what consumption I will get on longer journeys.

I will also be interested to see how it copes with hills in electric mode. There is only 60KW (80bhp) available from the battery and if any more power is required then the engine must be started. The Prius also has a 60KW electric motor and there are a few hills it is slow to accelerate up on battery alone so I am expecting the Outlander PHEV to struggle even more since it is much heavier. I don't really want the engine to start on short journeys and hope that with a gentle foot I can ascend the hills reasonably on battery.

Again, I like pretty much everything about the car and I'm just making sure I can live with the car on a daily basis if I buy one.

kind regards,
Mark

You cannot put the car into fully electric mode manually. The ICE will always kick in as soon as you need more power or exceed 70 MpH
In my experience the car runs at its most economical if you set the regeneration to 5 in urban areas, switch to save and regeneration 0 on the motorway, set it to eco, and let the computer do the hard work (like thinking :mrgreen: ).
Mitsubishi advises to drive in charge mode in the mountains.
Over here the car comes with a one-day training to learn to drive it optimally. I’m not sure that you will obtain a meaningful result this way.

I know I keep saying this but as a Prius Plug-in owner for 16 months I am VERY aware of how the technology works and its limitations. I am not a newbie expecting too much and fully intend discovering any limitations I can't accept BEFORE I buy the car.

I will put the car into fully electric mode in urban driving by not having to exceed 40mph anyway and accelerating using no more power than I can get from battery alone. After a few minutes of testing I will easily be able to judge this from the power meter. This is how I drive my prius on short journeys. If I am unable to drive short journeys in the PHEV without the engine starting then this is not the car for me. It will annoy me no end having the engine start when the battery has charge on short journeys as well as devastate the fuel economy. On a 3 mile journey the engine would be warming up for much of it.

Thanks for all the feedback. It does help me to think more clearly about things.

Kind regards,
Mark

 

[jaapv]

It is different from the Prius in that it does not have a CVT. At lower speeds the ICE will kick in if needed in series mode. And to drive it on the motorway at speed with an empty battery. .. well, it is a rather heavy petrol SUV with a large frontal area. And without a “laws of physics off” switch. It will take about 10 liters/100 KM. Any sleek Turbodiesel will beat it hollow in that discipline. But then when I am working and commuting and once in a while drive it a bit outside its range I use maybe 10 -20 liters a month. . 20.000 Km since January 5th.

 

[maddogsetc]

After a few minutes of testing I will easily be able to judge this from the power meter

If I interpret you correctly you are wanting to judge whether it's being driven by electric motors or the ICE using the power meter?

If that's the case you can achieve the same result much more easily as there is a mode which displays a graphic showing the direction of flow of energy through the battery, ICE & wheels. So it will tell you when its running in pure EV, serial or parallel mode, as well as telling you when its recharging the battery whether through braking or from the ICE.

 

[user 258]

After a few minutes of testing I will easily be able to judge this from the power meter

If I interpret you correctly you are wanting to judge whether it's being driven by electric motors or the ICE using the power meter?

If that's the case you can achieve the same result much more easily as there is a mode which displays a graphic showing the direction of flow of energy through the battery, ICE & wheels. So it will tell you when its running in pure EV, serial or parallel mode, as well as telling you when its recharging the battery whether through braking or from the ICE.

No, I mean I want to be able to accelerate reasonably quickly and drive in quite a hilly city without the petrol engine starting. Since there is no EV only mode it requires that I don't demand more power than the batteries alone can give (which is 60KW (80BHP) and it will be done by keeping an eye on the power meter.

I've read extensive about the PHEV as well as having about a 40 minute test drive so know most of the theory but need to learn how it plays out in practice.

Kind regards,
Mark

 

[user 258]

It is different from the Prius in that it does not have a CVT. At lower speeds the ICE will kick in if needed in series mode. And to drive it on the motorway at speed with an empty battery. .. well, it is a rather heavy petrol SUV with a large frontal area. And without a “laws of physics off” switch. It will take about 10 liters/100 KM. Any sleek Turbodiesel will beat it hollow in that discipline. But then when I am working and commuting and once in a while drive it a bit outside its range I use maybe 10 -20 liters a month. . 20.000 Km since January 5th.

Hi,

Thanks for responding. I have read a great deal about how it works and fully understand how it is different to the Prius. I simply wanted to know what its true economy will be when on longer journeys. I'm in a position where with the Prius 12 mile EV range 50% of my miles are purely EV. With the Outlander the percentage of my miles in EV mode will be greater but the economy when the EV range is used up will be worse.

Most people swapping to the outlander from a normal car will be totally delighted with their improved fuel consumption. Coming from prius Plug-in means I already get superb economy (115mpg since purchase) and I'm likely to get worse economy. I'm just trying to get a better feel for how much worse. I might alter the fuel consumption test and exclude the urban part so I just test the motorway element.

As I mentioned, I was impressed with how much it stayed in parralell hybrid mode while cruising at 50-70mph. All the technical documentation I had read insisted that series hybrid mode was the preferred mode at speeds below 74mph unless extra power direct from the engine was required. This is clearly not the case as it swaps to parralell mode whenever it can since it is the most efficient.

Kind regards,
mark

 

[user 258]

Hi avensys, I like your very systematic approach to the test drive. My dealer was only allocating a couple of hours per person as the demand here is so high he can't let it go for any longer. Sat with me too throughout. Compare that to the 'take it away and play with it, bring back sometime' approach of your typical BMW/Merc dealer' :shock:

Will be very interested to hear what you find

I don't think it is their normal policy to loan the car out for an extended test drive but he realised the 40 minute drive wasn't sufficient and that to make a sale I needed longer i the car. This drive will be about 4 hours and I will not be accompanied so won't have the salesmen talking to me all the time

I'll report back anyway for anyone interested.

Kind regards,
mark

 

[jaapv]

It is different from the Prius in that it does not have a CVT. At lower speeds the ICE will kick in if needed in series mode. And to drive it on the motorway at speed with an empty battery. .. well, it is a rather heavy petrol SUV with a large frontal area. And without a “laws of physics off” switch. It will take about 10 liters/100 KM. Any sleek Turbodiesel will beat it hollow in that discipline. But then when I am working and commuting and once in a while drive it a bit outside its range I use maybe 10 -20 liters a month. . 20.000 Km since January 5th.

Hi,

Thanks for responding. I have read a great deal about how it works and fully understand how it is different to the Prius. I simply wanted to know what its true economy will be when on longer journeys. I'm in a position where with the Prius 12 mile EV range 50% of my miles are purely EV. With the Outlander the percentage of my miles in EV mode will be greater but the economy when the EV range is used up will be worse.

Most people swapping to the outlander from a normal car will be totally delighted with their improved fuel consumption. Coming from prius Plug-in means I already get superb economy (115mpg since purchase) and I'm likely to get worse economy. I'm just trying to get a better feel for how much worse. I might alter the fuel consumption test and exclude the urban part so I just test the motorway element.

As I mentioned, I was impressed with how much it stayed in parralell hybrid mode while cruising at 50-70mph. All the technical documentation I had read insisted that series hybrid mode was the preferred mode at speeds below 74mph unless extra power direct from the engine was required. This is clearly not the case as it swaps to parralell mode whenever it can since it is the most efficient.

Kind regards,
mark

I found quite a bit of variation. In summer, with light traffic and driving 80 MpH I will normally do between 30 and 35 MpG. However, with a skibox on, freezing and snowing, i.e. heater at full blast windscreen wipers, headlights, hilly Autobahn, I would count myself lucky to get 25 on the same speed. This is driving with the car set to Eco and Save.
Note, btw., that even with the ICE in parallel mode there is still electrical power being delivered to the rear axle.


It is in Dutch, but as it is mainly numbers I believe it is understandable anyway, this is a list of real-world results by forum members:
http://www.outlanderphevforum.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2845&p=36107#p36107

 

[Goldie]

I don't think it is their normal policy to loan the car out for an extended test drive but he realised the 40 minute drive wasn't sufficient and that to make a sale I needed longer i the car. This drive will be about 4 hours and I will not be accompanied so won't have the salesmen talking to me all the time

I'll report back anyway for anyone interested.

Kind regards,
mark[/quote]

Hi avensys. I have just picked up my new Outlander Aspire (last Friday). My trade in was a Prius C Toyota which I had for 17 months. This was not a plug-in though, only charging its battery through regen.
From reading your posts, I can't see how you could compare the Outlander and Prius in such fine detail.
As you know, the fully charged Outlander go do 50 odd kms (sorry I live in Victoria Australia and stopped using 'miles' many years ago).
Do your testing without using the Save Mode. If used, straight away the engine and or/both generator must start. And if the Aircon or heater is on, the battery (EV range) will again be less as you well know. I am driving (with a light foot) in Eco mode and normal and the engine is not coming on. As another poster has said, view the good car battery picture found under the INFO - TRIP button and see where the power is coming from.
Buy the Outlander and you will enjoy the ride, and save out fuel outlays.
But also know that if you drive more than 50 kms without recharging, you can still continue the drive.
Regards
Goldie