Pedal v Paddles

[MadFrankie]

Hi all,

So far a happy PHEV owner of 2 days!

I've been wading through the owners manual, (possibly the most unhelpful one I've seen), and consuming all of the real life tips you fine people have posted on this forum and one question I've got as I try to get to grips with the EV is...

Pedal or Paddle?

That is to say, I've been watching the charge / eco / drive dial, the pretty charging pictures and playing around on my drive to work, (safely office, honest), and can't seem to decide which option recharges the battery better.

I get that harsh breaking isn't good as it can't catch and store the energy created quick enough and so is wasted but the difference between paddling around from B2 - B5 or breaking lightly on the same bends / roundabouts seems really negligible.

I assume Mitsubishi put the paddles there for a reason, so there must be some benefit to using them???

 

[maby]

It is not really one or the other - the paddles really just fine tune the pedal response... if you lift your foot off the accelerator, the car will apply some measure of regenerative braking, if you press the brake pedal, the level of regeneration will increase up to a point and it will then apply the mechanical brakes to get increased deceleration if you press the pedal harder. The paddles adjust the amount of regenerative braking that you get before you hit the brake pedal. The default value is the B2 setting - you can adjust from B0 - which is just coasting with no braking effect to B5 which is the equivalent of going down fast through a manual gearbox. Personally, I only really use the paddles to control a long hill descent - B4 or B5 will allow you to hold your speed down a long and quite steep hill without heating up the brakes. Others here use them far more actively, claiming that they can get significantly better EV range - I don't think the benefit is worth the trouble - and do be aware that with high B levels you can effectively brake quite hard without the brake lights coming on - not necessarily good for road safety!

 

[MadFrankie]

Cheers Maby,

That basically sums up / confirms my thoughts. I tried coasting on B2 and it gave me '2 bars into the blue' on the dial and I could coast to a stop in ~100m, doing the same on B5 went down to about 5 bars but I stopped in about 50m so I roughly worked out that the regeneration effect was about the same.

I suppose the paddles are for that type of situation, like you say, on long / steep down hills or slowly rolling to a halt in traffic are where the paddles come into their own, but the brake does the same job when you actually need to break so what's the point paddling around at the same time.

I do agree, it seems quite a lot of effort to paddle to get what is likely to be a very small return in regeneration but, I'll give it a go for a bit and see where I can get the EV range.

Wonder why Mitsu didn't make a B5 level turn the brakes on or at least make them flash or something to warn the cars behind?

 

[PolishPilot]

I actually drive all the time with B5.

I have then to use just one pedal, accelerator, in most situations.
Moving it a little I control braking force very well in city traffic or on the highway.
I use brake pedal just for full stop or emergency braking.

It supports easy driving style and I have the feeling that it gives you
maximal advantage of regeneration.

I feel this is also very comfortable way of driving and I love it.

Changing to any other car after my PHEV is a big struggle the fist few minutes.
You get used to good things very easily.

 

[MadFrankie]

One other question, does anyone know how much / far you have to push the brake pedal before it goes from useful regen to mechanical?

Would help people make the decision whether to paddle or to brake...

 

[gwatpe]

Personally, I only really use the paddles to control a long hill descent - B4 or B5 will allow you to hold your speed down a long and quite steep hill without heating up the brakes.

.....

- and do be aware that with high B levels you can effectively brake quite hard without the brake lights coming on -

This is exactly what I have been trying to use the paddles for.

Trouble is that my PHEV runs away even on B5. Only seems to hold speed with under half a battery. Using the ACC on the same descent activates the mechanical brakes, with the brake light being activated.

Forum readers may wish to comment on at what battery level they find the REGEN is no longer effective. There is a number of 86% and none at full charge, but does anyone have data on the kW of REGEN vs indicated battery level. All PHEV owners would benefit from this information.

 

[PolishPilot]

...
Forum readers may wish to comment on at what battery level they find the REGEN is no longer effective. There is a number of 86% and none at full charge, but does anyone have data on the kW of REGEN vs indicated battery level. All PHEV owners would benefit from this information.

As mentioned before I drive always with B5.

I noticed no regen braking for the first 2-3km, not sure what battery level,
but the small permanent gauge on the dashboard starts showing first dark line
on top when the regen starts to be noticeable.

It gradually increases the effectivenesses after 4-5 km electric drive.

I hope it helps.

PS: This was not a good news for my Swiss friend who live on a high pass,
doing always their first 10 kilometres just downhill.
They cannot profit from regen at all, in this case, having charged full at home.
And there is no other "engine braking" option available, they have to heat their
brakes all the way down.

 

[greendwarf]

I actually drive all the time with B5.

.

Even when cruising at a steady speed? Surely this is like driving with the handbrake on, as the Regen won't recover all the energy used to overcome the braking effect. :?

 

[maby]

I actually drive all the time with B5.

.

Even when cruising at a steady speed? Surely this is like driving with the handbrake on, as the Regen won't recover all the energy used to overcome the braking effect. :?

The B setting only applies when the car is coasting with no accelerator depression. By default it runs in B2, but you can adjust that from B0 (no braking effect) to B5 (equivalent of heavy engine braking).

As has been noted, it stops working if you have a fully charged battery - so you can't rely on it if you have a steep hill just outside your house.

 

[gwatpe]

Even when cruising at a steady speed? Surely this is like driving with the handbrake on, as the Regen won't recover all the energy used to overcome the braking effect. :?

The PHEV drive controller is actually quite good at ensuring that Energy is not just recycled within the Drive and REGEN systems.

If you are sloppy with the accelerator pedal then yes power can be wasted with drive and regen, but not at the same time. When driving on a really bumpy road, better to not use high levels of REGEN.

I traveled with another PHEV owner during a battery range experiment drive, who I know was driving with ACC on a bumpy road, as the brake lights came on quite a lot, so energy would have been recycled with REGEN and hence wasted. This could have explained why my PHEV managed an extra 2km on a full battery range test on the same road at the same time at the same speeds.

 

[Gollags]

Forum readers may wish to comment on at what battery level they find the REGEN is no longer effective. There is a number of 86% and none at full charge, but does anyone have data on the kW of REGEN vs indicated battery level. All PHEV owners would benefit from this information.

In short this will be unique to each car, Re-gen braking is considered as FAST charging (Like the motorway chargers) and will only charge the batteries according to my manual to 80% of full charge
so my assumption is that the software waits until there is sufficient head room in the batteries so that it does not damage them by over charging, i did a little Google searching on Battery charging and there is something called TOP and Bottom battery balancing, basically the computer make some calculations and makes a decision on when its best to start the re-gen.

for those of you interested in the Techie bits ( this is what i have learnt from my basic research i am not a battery or electrical expert )
each battery has an individual internal resistance, this resistance during charging means each Cells will take a different amount of time to accept a full charge, to get the most range each cell needs to be fully charged. So each Cell will have a bypass circuit that allows those Cells with low resistance to stop accepting charge when the correct voltage is reached, allowing those with a higher resistance to still charge to full power, however these bypass circuit's only work at lower amps, which means the High amps produced by the RE-GEN and Fast chargers could damage those low resistance Cells by over charging them with high Amp chargers.
as time passes and the number of charges increase this internal resistance of the individual cell will change so the Car calculates at what point its safe to use the fast charge to preserve the life of the batteries.

 

[PolishPilot]

I actually drive all the time with B5..

Even when cruising at a steady speed? Surely this is like driving with the handbrake on, as the Regen won't recover all the energy used to overcome the braking effect. :?

When I cruise with a steady speed I use the cruise control, per definition designed just for that.
Cruise control is the optimal way of saving energy, you are never as precise in keeping constant speed
with your foot as the CC computer.
But if you wish, you can do it, with B5 you just use the accelerator pedal, if you press it just slightly,
then you can coast, and accelerate and brake at your will by pressing it harder or letting it go.

On the other hand, with CC, I drive then "with my thumb" (as the airline pilots with AP),
I have my feet on the floor, thumb on the CC, if I wish to brake, someone slows in front of me,
I just press "cancel", once the road is free again, I just return to CC stored speed again and
the car does the rest.

(Of course, it would be even easier with ACC, but it was not available at such short term I needed to
get my car for tax reasons, so I had to give it up, to my deep regret...)

 

[Paddlepower]

I actually drive all the time with B5.

I have then to use just one pedal, accelerator, in most situations.
Moving it a little I control braking force very well in city traffic or on the highway.
I use brake pedal just for full stop or emergency braking.

It supports easy driving style and I have the feeling that it gives you
maximal advantage of regeneration.

I feel this is also very comfortable way of driving and I love it.

Changing to any other car after my PHEV is a big struggle the fist few minutes.
You get used to good things very easily.

I'm also loving this style of driving. Drove down a very steep winding road tonight and kept it on B5, Great control round the bends. Amazing feeling, doing it with one foot in control. Sure it also increases your awareness of the road ahead as you pre-empt paddle possibilities! :shock:

 

[greendwarf]

I actually drive all the time with B5..

Even when cruising at a steady speed? Surely this is like driving with the handbrake on, as the Regen won't recover all the energy used to overcome the braking effect. :?

When I cruise with a steady speed I use the cruise control, per definition designed just for that.
Cruise control is the optimal way of saving energy, you are never as precise in keeping constant speed
with your foot as the CC computer.
But if you wish, you can do it, with B5 you just use the accelerator pedal, if you press it just slightly,
then you can coast, and accelerate and brake at your will by pressing it harder or letting it go.

On the other hand, with CC, I drive then "with my thumb" (as the airline pilots with AP),
I have my feet on the floor, thumb on the CC, if I wish to brake, someone slows in front of me,
I just press "cancel", once the road is free again, I just return to CC stored speed again and
the car does the rest.

(Of course, it would be even easier with ACC, but it was not available at such short term I needed to
get my car for tax reasons, so I had to give it up, to my deep regret...)

I admit I've not used the CC yet as, apart from one journey, all my trips have been in London at 30 mph and under. But I still don't see how relatively short periods of cruising can benefit from B5 - if flat or gentle gradient, I would have thought B0 is making the best of the momentum rather than decelerating immediately you ease up on the pedal, so that you have to accelerate again under B5. As you say this can't be precise, so the more you press & release the less efficient you will be using energy :?

 

[maby]

...

I admit I've not used the CC yet as, apart from one journey, all my trips have been in London at 30 mph and under. But I still don't see how relatively short periods of cruising can benefit from B5 - if flat or gentle gradient, I would have thought B0 is making the best of the momentum rather than decelerating immediately you ease up on the pedal, so that you have to accelerate again under B5. As you say this can't be precise, so the more you press & release the less efficient you will be using energy :?

I think a lot depends on how good you are at planning ahead. I would agree that coasting to a halt on B0 is likely to be more efficient overall than stopping actively on B5 - but only if you are sufficiently good at looking ahead to avoid hitting the vehicle in front without needing the brakes until you are almost stopped. If you are going to need to actively decelerate, then B5 is probably the most efficient way to do it - though the lack of brake lights might not be the greatest idea in the world in a busy city.

Incidentally, I frequently drive in London and make substantial use of the cruise control. Since I seem to be one of the few drivers who actually respects the speed limit, I usually have plenty of clear road in front of me.

 

[MadFrankie]

So are we to assume that 10m of B5 regen is better than 40m of B1 or 5m of just foot braking?

I'm still struggling to see the benefits of the paddles other than to encourage you get a bit of regen in and not feather the accelerator when coasting...

 

[maby]

So are we to assume that 10m of B5 regen is better than 40m of B1 or 5m of just foot braking?

I'm still struggling to see the benefits of the paddles other than to encourage you get a bit of regen in and not feather the accelerator when coasting...

The paddles are a major benefit for controlling speed on long downhill runs. I do believe that some here are taking them to pointless extremes, discussing the best strategy for eeking the last 50 yards out of the vehicle in EV mode. On journeys that I do frequently, I have descents of several hundred yards down hills that are steep enough to need escape lanes - I use the paddle to skip between B5 and B3 in order to control my speed down them - but my interest is far more in minimising wear on the brake disks than it is on recouping enough electricity to go a hundred yards at the bottom.

The car will always make use of regen in preference to brake pads when you touch the brake pedal - but it can only apply the B5 level of braking on regen alone. I don't think the paddles do anything that you cannot do with the pedal, but by separating the regen function from the friction function, they allow you to avoid applying friction braking without realising it.

 

[greendwarf]

So are we to assume that 10m of B5 regen is better than 40m of B1 or 5m of just foot braking?

I'm still struggling to see the benefits of the paddles other than to encourage you get a bit of regen in and not feather the accelerator when coasting...

The paddles are a major benefit for controlling speed on long downhill runs..

That was my impression - B5 etc. is for getting a similar effect to engine braking in a lower gear (ideal on hills) but is too fierce for just coasting up to the back of traffic on the flat. It was just that Polish Pilot stated that he drives everywhere in B5. Perhaps my original comment should have been that it's like driving everywhere in 2nd gear (which my wife often used to :lol: ) rather than with the handbrake on.

 

[maby]

...
That was my impression - B5 etc. is for getting a similar effect to engine braking in a lower gear (ideal on hills) but is too fierce for just coasting up to the back of traffic on the flat. It was just that Polish Pilot stated that he drives everywhere in B5. Perhaps my original comment should have been that it's like driving everywhere in 2nd gear (which my wife often used to :lol: ) rather than with the handbrake on.

There is an important difference - the regen braking only applies if you are not touching the accelerator. If you are driving at 30 around town and pull the paddle till it says B5, you will not notice any difference - it's only when you release the accelerator that you will see a braking effect. The overall effect is more like driving a dodgem car - one pedal - press to go, release to stop.

 

[MadFrankie]

...
That was my impression - B5 etc. is for getting a similar effect to engine braking in a lower gear (ideal on hills) but is too fierce for just coasting up to the back of traffic on the flat. It was just that Polish Pilot stated that he drives everywhere in B5. Perhaps my original comment should have been that it's like driving everywhere in 2nd gear (which my wife often used to :lol: ) rather than with the handbrake on.

There is an important difference - the regen braking only applies if you are not touching the accelerator. If you are driving at 30 around town and pull the paddle till it says B5, you will not notice any difference - it's only when you release the accelerator that you will see a braking effect. The overall effect is more like driving a dodgem car - one pedal - press to go, release to stop.

Great analogy, I've often though B5 seems like a dodgem car. I too can't really get the idea of using the paddles to eek out that extra 5m of electric.

Personally I've come to the conclusion that the paddles are good for big downhills or a bit of fun during the mundane drive but nothing to really worry about.