Not using battery

[anko]

True. But would you really think there would be two levels of "charging the battery while parked and heating", one with and one without Charge mode engaged? Well, only a test with extended OBDII PIDs will tells us. Something I can provide. Now we need to wait for it to get cold enough

BTW: I do think the 3 kW is what is needed to keep the engine spinning. Like I said, it is an estimate. Fuel economy is very bad when running idle. So, I guess real output will be somewhat lower. Like 0, after you deduct the cost of overcoming internal resistance.

 

[Grigou]

True. But would you really think there would be two levels of "charging the battery while parked and heating", one with and one without Charge mode engaged?

Yes I really think it could make sense. The first level could be just for heating (to limit fuel consumption), the second one ... for charging

Well, only a test with extended OBDII PIDs will tells us. Something I can provide. Now we need to wait for it to get cold enough

No need to wait for a long time with my Intense french version ... Just today : 14°C outdoor, my wife was cold so we put the setpoint at 20°C and the ICE started immediately (for a very short time, perhaps one minute).
But I haven't got your possibilities for any measurements unfortunately

BTW: I do think the 3 kW is what is needed to keep the engine spinning. Like I said, it is an estimate. Fuel economy is very bad when running idle. So, I guess real output will be somewhat lower. Like 0, after you deduct the cost of overcoming internal resistance.

You're probably right, especially if the 3 kW is an estimate

 

[anko]

True. But would you really think there would be two levels of "charging the battery while parked and heating", one with and one without Charge mode engaged?

Yes I really think it could make sense. The first level could be just for heating (to limit fuel consumption), the second one ... for charging

But if the first level is just for heating (which 'kinda' makes sense, as long as you are aware of it) then it is not for charging and it is not a second level of charging .... Or?

Well, only a test with extended OBDII PIDs will tells us. Something I can provide. Now we need to wait for it to get cold enough

No need to wait for a long time with my Intense french version ... Just today : 14°C outdoor, my wife was cold so we put the setpoint at 20°C and the ICE started immediately (for a very short time, perhaps one minute).
But I haven't got your possibilities for any measurements unfortunately

Of course. Didn't think of that. Is your adapter BT or Wifi? If it is WiFi, do you want me to set you up? As a test?

 

[Grigou]

True. But would you really think there would be two levels of "charging the battery while parked and heating", one with and one without Charge mode engaged?

Yes I really think it could make sense. The first level could be just for heating (to limit fuel consumption), the second one ... for charging

But if the first level is just for heating (which 'kinda' makes sense, as long as you are aware of it) then it is not for charging and it is not a second level of charging .... Or?

"Just for heating" doesn't implies "no charging at all" : a little more power for charging could just help to heat more quickly. A kind of compromise between no power at all (too long for heating) and Charge (too much fuel consumption).
Nevertheless, I tend to agree with you since 3 kW seems to be a small value

Well, only a test with extended OBDII PIDs will tells us. Something I can provide. Now we need to wait for it to get cold enough

No need to wait for a long time with my Intense french version ... Just today : 14°C outdoor, my wife was cold so we put the setpoint at 20°C and the ICE started immediately (for a very short time, perhaps one minute).
But I haven't got your possibilities for any measurements unfortunately

Of course. Didn't think of that. Is your adapter BT or Wifi? If it is WiFi, do you want me to set you up? As a test?

Thank you for this great proposal but unfortunately* my dongle is just a BT one ...

* not so unfortunately since I made the deliberate choice to buy a cheap dongle, just to see occasionally a few gauges (instant fuel consumption, RPM, coolant T° ...), while waiting for EvBatMon

 

[anko]

I still can't see how the control systems are sensitive enough to start the ICE but not provide charge if the energy is not needed either for heat or motive power.

Do you have neighbours with regular cars? You may want to ask them, as they do it all the time :idea:

 

[greendwarf]

I still can't see how the control systems are sensitive enough to start the ICE but not provide charge if the energy is not needed either for heat or motive power.

Do you have neighbours with regular cars? You may want to ask them, as they do it all the time :idea:

Hmm, but to get back to my original point. Last night I had to change lanes quickly in order to turn right at the next set of lights. As I was in EV the ICE fired up when I hit the accelerator. I then almost immediately stopped at the lights but the ICE kept running for a while even though there was no longer any demand - hence my point about lack of sensitivity in the control system.

However, the dash showed intermittent energy flow to the battery during this time. As the engine was just ticking over and the car not moving (also no heating) this must show "surplus" power going to the battery i.e. charging.

 

[anko]

Last night I had to change lanes quickly in order to turn right at the next set of lights. As I was in EV the ICE fired up when I hit the accelerator. I then almost immediately stopped at the lights but the ICE kept running for a while even though there was no longer any demand - hence my point about lack of sensitivity in the control system.

I have always assumed they do that on purpose. Starting an engine that has not been running for a while (How long is a while? Don't know) is a very bad thing as oil is not properly spread out in the engine. By letting the engine run a little bit longer, the second time it happens (within said while) will not be as bad for the engine as the first time. Next time, perhaps check what happens if you do the same with a warmed up engine. Does it stop immediately then?

However, the dash showed intermittent energy flow to the battery during this time. As the engine was just ticking over and the car not moving (also no heating) this must show "surplus" power going to the battery i.e. charging.

I don't think it must. The energy flow indicator is just an indicator.

There is no separate graphic for displaying an engine that runs idle. So, the intermittently lighting up blue arrow from engine to battery might be just that: indicating an idle running engine. Next to that, it clearly does not always tell the truth. For example, when you are running in parallel mode with only the orange arrow from engine to front wheels, there is still energy being drained from the battery. And this can easily be 6 kW or more (even with aircon and heater off). As another example, hit 4WD Lock while driving in parallel mode. The indicator will show one orange and two blue arrows. But energy cannot be going from the engine into the battery and out of the battery into the E-motors at the same time. Obviously. What is relevant is (by laws of Kirchhoff) is the difference between the two currents. Depending on driving circumstances, SOC may be going up or down without us being able to tell the difference.

 

[jaapv]

The oil problem used to exist in the past. With modern synthetic oils it is not really an issue any more. Lubricating properties are maintained despite an engine not running.

 

[Grigou]

Next time, perhaps check what happens if you do the same with a warmed up engine. Does it stop immediately then?

Interesting question !
I will try to answer it ASAP, but if somebody could answer before it would be even better

 

[karl]

I think that the engine control system knows exactly what's going on, and nothing can be explained by "inexactness".

The car seems to be able to control the generator load rather exactly.

When the engine is started to get more power - the engine seems to run a bit longer when it's cold, but in idle.
When the engine is started because it's too cold, it's idling first with no or little charging. At that point, the blue "charging indicator"
comes on intermittently.

After a while, it starts to charge for real, unless the battery is full - then it just applies just enough generator load to drive the motors,
and I don't think it's using any battery unless is it required.
This also happens when the engine is cold. If the engine was started for power - it just idles for a while and shuts down when it's not needed anymore.

So I think Mitsubishi is avoiding loading a cold engine more than necessary.

I'm also rather certain that when costing in B0 and in parallel mode, a small generator load is applied to
match the B0 in EV, rather than just disconnecting the engine.

 

[anko]

I'm also rather certain that when costing in B0 and in parallel mode, a small generator load is applied to
match the B0 in EV, rather than just disconnecting the engine.

Do you mean a load is applied to the generator? And what would that load do?

 

[karl]

I'm also rather certain that when costing in B0 and in parallel mode, a small generator load is applied to
match the B0 in EV, rather than just disconnecting the engine.

Do you mean a load is applied to the generator? And what would that load do?

When releasing the trottle when the car is in B0 + parallel mode, the engine seems to charge the batterry a little. It's still in parallel mode and it looks like the car is balancing the forces to match B0 in EV mode using the throttle and a slight generator load.

In B1 it disconnects the engine and goes into serial mode.


I'm only guessing though, i have not measured it.
(I have a Carberry in a drawer that i would like to find some time to test with the Outlander, but... well...)

 

[anko]

In Parallel + B0 + coasting, the battery is actually discharged as some power is needed to eliminate E-drag in the E-motors (and the generator). And this power is coming from the battery, instead of the generator. This is what the OBDII port of the car tells me.

In B1 it will disconnect and stop, rather than go into serial mode.

Never seen that Carberry before. Looks very interesting ... and time consuming :mrgreen: Have you ever done something with it? Does it have an ELM327 chip?

 

[gwatpe]

In Parallel + B0 + coasting, the battery is actually discharged as some power is needed to eliminate E-drag in the E-motors (and the generator). And this power is coming from the battery, instead of the generator. This is what the OBDII port of the car tells me.

The comment above cannot be taken as a generally happens statement.

My PHEV was just seen to return instant 5L/100km from OBD2 while in Parallel + B0 + coasting. The dash had ICE with Orange arrow to front wheels, and Blue arrow to battery. No arrow to the E-motors.

Speed increased slowly on a very slight downhill, so was truly coasting. The 5L/100km worth of electricity was going to the battery and not to the wheels.

plotted OBD data

The blue trace in the coasting section is increasing slowly over about 1km of distance. The red trace is the L/100km. The car was not in any CC mode and B0 was selected. Clutch was engaged and ICE rpm tracked the speed, but unfortunately is not graphed. Still working on getting a few more parameters to be graphed.

There may be a certain set of conditions where the battery will be discharged as the PHEV reduced E-drag, but my PHEV in the test above would not have needed 5L/100km to overcome the motors E-drag. My PHEV certainly would have had the energy to overcome E-drag come from the generator, albeit via the battery connections to the motors.


PSedit:

here is the plot with ICE, RPM in green.

will present the L/100km in yellow in future, so it is easier to see.

 

[anko]

In Parallel + B0 + coasting, the battery is actually discharged as some power is needed to eliminate E-drag in the E-motors (and the generator). And this power is coming from the battery, instead of the generator. This is what the OBDII port of the car tells me.

The comment above cannot be taken as a generally happens statement.

You are right. It cannot. It kinda depends on whether you hit the brakes or were in B1+ before starting to coast, I guess. And perhaps also on whether you were in forced (low SOC) or voluntary (button) Charge mode.

This afternoon, I will try to make a couple of graphs that will show what actually goes on with generator, motors and battery, when:
- cancelling CC at 100 km/h
- lifting the throttle in B0 at 100 km/h
- lifting the throttle in B1+ at 100 km/h

Will try to do all of these with Charge button pressed and with low SOC.

[The 5L/100km worth of electricity was going to the battery and not to the wheels.

Part of the 5l/100km are used to keep the engine running. And if there is something left to generate electricity, some of the electricity will be used to eliminate E-drag in the E-motors. This does not show up on the display. How much is left to charge the battery is to be seen. Perhaps the gaps I want to make give some more insight.

 

[erikpo]

The only way is to turn down the temperature to its minimum, but the engine will still start up if the outside temperature is much different to the car.

Never seen that on my car with the temperature set to 15°C, even when the external temperature is very cold (lower than 0°C) :shock:

That's my experience as well - when I lower the temperature to 15°C the a/c and internal air recycle will switch on. I normally turn off the a/c again, but with this setting I can drive on el only as long as the battery lasts. It seems that after some driving the electrical circuit will generate some heat and the temperature can be turned up a bit without firing up the engine, but not if it's too cold (not sure which version I have, it was bought in feb-2014). I've also found it's worth keeping an eye on the power meter for the heating/cooling (the left-most of the three circulair meters on the touch screen - don't remember exactly what it's called), if this shows high usage the engine will soon fire and you should turn the fan off or the temperature down if you'd like to keep the driving electric.