I've bin finking

[Regulo]

That's "I've been thinking" to those not raised in the East End of London.

I recently posted on another thread about the problems to come when the whole motoring public are persuaded/forced to go electric. Mainly the infrastructure and the need for people used to refuelling in 5 minutes to realise they need at least half an hour to get any juice in. I also stated the public needed a battery/storage device in their cars that could be charged in 5 minutes. I now realise what an idiotic thing that was to say!

Let's do some working out:

A 10 kWH battery will charge (from a 250v supply[see how I'm making it easy?]) in 4 hours at 10 Amps. Theoretically speaking, no losses.
Therefore it will charge at 20A in 2 hours.
Therefore it will charge at 40A in 1 hour.
Therefore it will charge at 80A in 30 minutes. See where this leads? We're already into industrial sized electrical installation territory.
Therefore it will charge at 240A in 10 minutes, and 480A at 5 minutes. We need a cable as thick as your wrist!

I therefore declare 5 minute charging to be unobtainable in the public domain. And I'm an idiot, first class!

 

[SolarBoy]

I think we need to remember we are still in an infancy when it comes to EV's.

Inductive charging on motorways may become a thing, or batteries may be replaced by energy dense super capacitors that can take a full charge in seconds, or perhaps we'll all have a Mr Fusion installed?

Cables will become thinner as soon as ambient temperature super-conductors are developed.

A local petrol station to me has just had a rapid installed. I have been racking my brains trying to work out why the company installed a charger there, basically next to an industrial estate and on the edge of the town. Who wants to wait for 30 minutes to an hour to get a charge on a road leading to just a local village. Then I looked over the road to see the 24 hour McDonald's, and the 10k houses being built next to it most of which don't have driveways.

 

[HHL]

That's "I've been thinking" to those not raised in the East End of London.

I recently posted on another thread about the problems to come when the whole motoring public are persuaded/forced to go electric. Mainly the infrastructure and the need for people used to refuelling in 5 minutes to realise they need at least half an hour to get any juice in. I also stated the public needed a battery/storage device in their cars that could be charged in 5 minutes. I now realise what an idiotic thing that was to say!

Let's do some working out:

A 10 kWH battery will charge (from a 250v supply[see how I'm making it easy?]) in 4 hours at 10 Amps. Theoretically speaking, no losses.
Therefore it will charge at 20A in 2 hours.
Therefore it will charge at 40A in 1 hour.
Therefore it will charge at 80A in 30 minutes. See where this leads? We're already into industrial sized electrical installation territory.
Therefore it will charge at 240A in 10 minutes, and 480A at 5 minutes. We need a cable as thick as your wrist!

I therefore declare 5 minute charging to be unobtainable in the public domain. And I'm an idiot, first class!

Now you see where the Plug-in Hybrids fit in.....

 

[elm70]

Maybe 480A for 5min charge sounds a lot

Still .. don't forget our PHEV battery can provide up to 60kw power which is 200Amps ... a Tesla with ludicrous mode .. over 500kw ... which I believe is over 1000Amp

When regen 40kw kick in ... we have over 120Amp recharge going into the battery

The cable from battery to the rest of the car is not so huge ... I'm sure a 500Amp cable is not as big as you may want to picture it. (just 2.5 times the current cable in our PHEV, that is not even the double size in diameter)

Anyhow ... I still don't like the idea of fast charging ... with more dense battery ... maybe it could make sense to have modular battery or modular plug in battery like Honda EV did show in the last motor shows

In my ideal view ... I would see a standard plug in module ... 20kg around .. with 20kwh (currently we are at best with 5kwh for 20kg of battery) ... so .. I see people that can go to a tank station at the start of a trip .. borrow 1 or 2 or 3 of these modules ... plug manually in the car ... and then during the trip ... they can replace these modules instead of recharging the car. And at the end of the trip .. returning these module to a tank station near the final destination ... "easy"

This will be needed for long journey ... for short trip .. the EV can use the internal battery .. which does not need to be massive.

At the moment .. for me .. the best way to fuel a car for a long trip .. is by fuel .. so our PHEV is the best the current technology can offer. Even better in case of the Ampera which is a better PHEV then our outlander .. but on worst shape and no 4x4

 

[jaapv]

The mental dissonance is in equating charging with getting petrol.

Getting your tank full takes ten minutes, when you include moving up to the pump, filling the tank and paying at the cashier.
This is done whilst you are on the road.

However, charging your EV is done whilst you are not driving and doing other things, like eating, sleeping or working, and it takes less than two minutes to connect and disconnect the car and possibly to swipe your card. Even more so as battery efficiency improves and ranges increase.

Over the life of the car you will waste less time charging than you will do filling.

As for the infrastructure, you are right that it will take a bit of organizing to get the grid adapted to the coming energy change. Basically the government should be working on it right now, and in many places it is. As I understand it, countries like Germany, Norway and the Netherlands, among others, are well-prepared and keeping up with demand.

And I agree with Elm70, that we just at the beginning of development. There will be many technological developments in the future that nobody has even thought of yet.
Remember, in the 19th Century there were dire environmental predictions in London: By the 1920ies the streets would be two feet deep in horse manure due to the increasing traffic... :mrgreen:

 

[ChrisMiller]

And don't forget the heat generated by fast charging. Charging at 240A (60kW) is going to produce (say) 5kW of heat, which must be dispersed, without damaging the battery. This is why fast chargers stop at around 80% of full, because charging any battery becomes much less efficient as it approaches its capacity - true of your mobile phone just as much as a car - so the charging rate must be reduced if you want to get up to 100% 'full'.

 

[user 816]

I suppose you could have 2 300v battery strings that are switched into serial connection for charging at 600 volts for thinner cables and connectors, then back to parallel for running. Paralleling batteries has to be done with care, but when I worked in the UPS industry we did so with vast installation, its quite possible.

I live in an area with a lot of medium sized businesses around, they will all have substantial 3 phase supplies already. They could easily spare the capacity for a pretty strong rapid charger install on the side without overloading the infrastructure.

With the bigger EV batteries coming (the Jaguar ipace full domestic charge time is 12 hours!!) I can see people stopping at these 'superchargers for maybe just 20 minutes to put a good bulk charge in, then finish off at home.

There is the assumption that all EV's will be empty and need a full 45+ minute charge, I would maintain that most, much of the time will need just a quick boost.

But it would take the government to offer an irresistible incentive package to make companies uptake it.

it is possible, I use a an electronic drop box system to get my parts for work delivered, they are on all kinds of sites rented by the logistics company, supermarkets, factories, storage centres, garages.

 

[elm70]

And don't forget the heat generated by fast charging. Charging at 240A (60kW) is going to produce (say) 5kW of heat, which must be dispersed, without damaging the battery. This is why fast chargers stop at around 80% of full, because charging any battery becomes much less efficient as it approaches its capacity - true of your mobile phone just as much as a car - so the charging rate must be reduced if you want to get up to 100% 'full'.

This does not match with my knowledge of Lithium batteries

Fast charging is possible only up to 80%, this is simply because fast charging is mainly a constant current charge .. while Lithium charge should , in the final phase, it must be done with constant voltage and decreasing current ... so it is by definition that the final stage of lithium battery charge is "slow" .. so fast charging normally just stop charging when it should be fine tuned for the final slow charging

Charging the battery I don't believe it has 90% efficiency (I think this can be up to 99% .. but more the current.power used, and less is the efficiency) ... at least not on the battery itself (AC to DC charger, using J1772, it has most of the power lost inside the AC to DC and the voltage step up process .. so it is the charger that is less efficient then not the battery itself)

Our PHEV got around 7deg temperature increase when discharge in motorway usage ... so .. at around 30kw so in around 20 minute time ... I expect that charging in 20min time may cause the same temperature change ... so .. nothing too critical

Our PHEV does not really have lithium battery designed for high power (but most of EV if not all EV, have Lithium battery tuned for max capacity) ... there are high power lithium battery capable to handle 90C discharge ... these can be charged and discharged ultra fast without any noticeable temperature change in the battery itself ... as said somewhere else here before .. think of the battery used in F1 or my the koenigsegg ... these can handle high power in both charge and discharge with a relative small size and capacity ... but ... these battery are very expensive, and possible have less kwh per kg compared to the more "traditional" EV battery

 

[elm70]

The mental dissonance is in equating charging with getting petrol.

Getting your tank full takes ten minutes, when you include moving up to the pump, filling the tank and paying at the cashier.
This is done whilst you are on the road.

However, charging your EV is done whilst you are not driving and doing other things, like eating, sleeping or working, and it takes less than two minutes to connect and disconnect the car and possibly to swipe your card. Even more so as battery efficiency improves and ranges increase.

Over the life of the car you will waste less time charging than you will do filling.

As for the infrastructure, you are right that it will take a bit of organizing to get the grid adapted to the coming energy change. Basically the government should be working on it right now, and in many places it is. As I understand it, countries like Germany, Norway and the Netherlands, among others, are well-prepared and keeping up with demand.

And I agree with Elm70, that we just at the beginning of development. There will be many technological developments in the future that nobody has even thought of yet.
Remember, in the 19th Century there were dire environmental predictions in London: By the 1920ies the streets would be two feet deep in horse manure due to the increasing traffic... :mrgreen:

EV is perfect for overnight charging at home ...

But ... when we need to be on the move ... with trips that can be over 1000km a day .. I know people that drive over 2000km making **** on the drive side on a 24h non stop journey ... anyhow ... when on the move ... I personally expect to refill my car in few minutes ... load fuel take 2 or 3 minutes .. similar to the time for pay the fuel ... eventually somebody make a visit in a toilet ... non necessary people combine fuel stop with lunch breaks ... if I have to do over 700km in a trip .. I may eat and drink in the car

Assuming that EV charging station will be available (which are not for me) ... it will cause to have 30/40 minutes delay for each "tank stop" ... that means adding 2h of more in a long trip ...

This is why our PHEV (so any decent PHEV) is perfect for the current technology

Still ... efficiency .. is available when things are done "slowly" ... so .. EV cars .. born for be more efficient and environmental friendly ... in my opinion if fast charged .. with extra waste in efficiency ... it does not make sense to me

Like people that believe to be "green" owning a Tesla that cost 100k ... which fur sure it had a huge impact on the environment during its production phase ..

For me .. fast charge is not "green" ... it is an extra cost and complexity that is not needed if producers and infrastructure suppliers (countries & tanks station/oil company) will think smarter

PS: Currently for fast charge, it is needed an extra battery in the charging station for provide the peak power that otherwise the grid would not be able to provide ... this is neither green nor cost efficient ... to produce lithium battery only for this job

 

[maby]

The mental dissonance is in equating charging with getting petrol.

Getting your tank full takes ten minutes, when you include moving up to the pump, filling the tank and paying at the cashier.
This is done whilst you are on the road.

However, charging your EV is done whilst you are not driving and doing other things, like eating, sleeping or working, and it takes less than two minutes to connect and disconnect the car and possibly to swipe your card. Even more so as battery efficiency improves and ranges increase.

Over the life of the car you will waste less time charging than you will do filling.

As for the infrastructure, you are right that it will take a bit of organizing to get the grid adapted to the coming energy change. Basically the government should be working on it right now, and in many places it is. As I understand it, countries like Germany, Norway and the Netherlands, among others, are well-prepared and keeping up with demand.

And I agree with Elm70, that we just at the beginning of development. There will be many technological developments in the future that nobody has even thought of yet.
Remember, in the 19th Century there were dire environmental predictions in London: By the 1920ies the streets would be two feet deep in horse manure due to the increasing traffic... :mrgreen:

EV is perfect for overnight charging at home ...

But ... when we need to be on the move ... with trips that can be over 1000km a day .. I know people that drive over 2000km making **** on the drive side on a 24h non stop journey ... anyhow ... when on the move ... I personally expect to refill my car in few minutes ... load fuel take 2 or 3 minutes .. similar to the time for pay the fuel ... eventually somebody make a visit in a toilet ... non necessary people combine fuel stop with lunch breaks ... if I have to do over 700km in a trip .. I may eat and drink in the car

...

Exactly - I spend a couple of days per week at our house and the rest of the time away with no available charging facilities. My trips are far less than 1000km per day, but still no socket to connect to overnight.

 

[jaapv]

Which is a situation that electric vehicles are not designed for, plug-ins a workable compromise and normal hybrids handle with ease.

In an ideal world people would choose their cars based on intended use.

 

[greendwarf]

However, there are very few places in the world that you can drive to which do not have electricity - even if you have to generate it on the spot. The same cannot be said to be true for fossil fuels or hydrogen. Of course, whether you can obtain access to it is another matter.

 

[maby]

Which is a situation that electric vehicles are not designed for, plug-ins a workable compromise and normal hybrids handle with ease.

In an ideal world people would choose their cars based on intended use.

All of which is ok - while there is a choice - governments now seem inclined to remove the choice in the reasonably near future and I'm not convinced that the available technology will have caught up by then.

 

[jaapv]

I did not say that we live in an ideal world
The problem with governments is that they tend to take general decisions with little thought for the consequences. In this case providing a viable infrastructure for electric vehicles. I am glad to say that there seems to be a positive movement in this respect on parts of the continent, however, rules and regulations lead to surprising effects.
A major bus company went for electric buses, was restricted by the legal obligation to do so by tender. result - obtained from China and rather unreliable, to say the least. The buses are called the Ali-Express by the drivers.