Is the PHEV for me?

[ensoruk]

Hi

Trying to work out if a PHEV is "for me"...

Is there a spreadsheet into which I can enter my mileage / driving parameters ?

Current mileage is

Mon - Fri - 90 miles/day (82 motorway, 8 suburban)
Weekends - 30 miles (mainly suburban/rural)

I should be able to charge every night, but not in the day.

I really dislike visiting petrol stations mid-week... do you think the fuel tank will be big enough to cope with this between weekend tank-fills?

Phil

 

[user 422]

Not really!

if you can't charge while at work you will be doing the Motorway miles in Serial mode at best at approx 15pence per mile and 8 miles only in pure EV at approx 5pence per mile
your weekend 30 miles could be pure EV at 5ppm.

with motorway MPG at 40 at best you will use the 40 litres ( usable before you get paranoid about running out ) in 5 days as you aren't extending the range much during the week by pure EV running...

its on the edge....IMO

 

[user 258]

Hi Phil,

Well done for considering the car and researching if it is the rght car for you BEFORE buying one

Let's do the maths!

24 miles EV range urban so your 8 miles will use 1/3 charge
18 miles EV range motorway so your remaining 2/3 charge is 12 miles

This leaves 70 miles per weekday on petrol. If you are an economical driver that is happy cruising at around 65-70mph then 40mpg is expected.

5 days at 70 miles is 350 miles on petrol. The tank is 10 gallons so if you ran it dry you would get 400 miles so your 350 miles should leave about 4-5 litres spare. The first fuel warning is at 7l and the second is at 4l.

You don't say if the 30 weekend miles are over the full weekend or per day. In any event any petrol used here would be minimal but would come out of your modest (tiny?) reserve.

An obvious strategy would be to fill one or two 5l cans and simply use them to top up the car when home midweek and refill them at the same time you fill the car at the weekend.

Other things to take into account.

On the downside:
If you drive at 75-80mph your mpg will likely drop from 40 to 32.
In winter the effective EV range will likely drop somewhat.

On the plus side:
You may be able to charge at the destination at some point in the future.
There may be parts of your motorway drive that are conducive to EV use such as when you have to drive at 50-60mph due to congestion or variable speed limits or when there are longish slightly downhill gradients that you can switch to EV mode for.

I would say it will be heavily dependant on your driving style/speed. Close but doable. Personally, and I'm sad like that, I would see it as a challenge.

Knd regards,
Mark

 

[user 258]

if you can't charge while at work you will be doing the Motorway miles in Serial mode

It doesn't affect the numbers and I agree with your conclusion (that it is close) but it will predominantly be in parrallel hybrid mode on the motorway not serial hybrid mode.

Kind regards,
Mark

 

[user 422]

Mark,
without really knowing his commuting route and driving style its difficult to predict just how much would be Serial/parallel!!!
and if an owner is really convinced that they want to go down the Eco path - their driving style MUST change anyway...

Phil,
Its also not just about Fuel economy - overall cost and lifestyle choices can play a part in your decision....
what is steering you towards the Outlander PHEV in the first place and not an alternative BEV or PHEV?

So far the Outlander is the only vehicle in its class for size and systems technology....

 

[maby]

If you like the car, it's for you and if you don't, then it isn't. Since we saw it, fell in love with it and ordered one, I've been researching and modelling and I really believe that the only people that really save money buying a PHEV are people who really don't need it. Up to 30 miles per day (60 if you can get a midday charge) it is very economical - but do you need a relatively high end 4WD estate for that? As soon as your average gets significantly over 100 miles per day, you are losing the benefit and the diesel Outlander starts to become better value for money.

In our case it will be a company car and we own the company - there is a significant tax benefit - but we would still get from A to B perfectly well and a whole lot cheaper buying an entry level Skoda Fabia. We are buying the car because we like it - nothing more.

 

[ensoruk]

Many thanks for all your replies, nothing beats real-world experience! Much appreciated.

> Its also not just about Fuel economy - overall cost and lifestyle choices can play a part in your decision....
>what is steering you towards the Outlander PHEV in the first place and not an alternative BEV or PHEV?

Well, as a company car user, the 5% Benefit in Kind rate is a big big attraction... overall it's a little cheaper than the Prius I currently drive, almost enough to offset the additional fuel costs.
An EV only vehicle just would just be too close on daily range (Leaf gets 80-90 per charge).

As for the other PHEVs... I really want Adaptive Cruise (have it on the Prius, and it would be hard to go back), and I can't find it on many other PHEVs
(not even the Prius Plug-in is available with it!)

So in summary, for me, the decision factors come down to Adaptive Cruise and whether I need to top-up mid week.

Phil

 

[Hypermiler]

maby
Just to pick you up on the people who don't really need it point (and there are two sides to that - needing a 4x4/SUV and needing a plug in car). You could argue that nobody actually "needs" it, and I completely get your point re you just need to love the car when it comes down to it. But I also think that is perfect for us (and this or similar must apply to quite a few others) because:

1. 90%+ of my journeys are < 28 miles, running around the kids, shopping etc.
2. We have two kids so regularly need a large boot for pushchair, shopping, days out luggage etc.
3. I have resisted getting an SUV because I am not keen on "gas-guzzlers" unless you really need them. Although we do go to quite a few shows etc where it will be useful for parking on soft ground, and it should be better in flooding/winter weather.
4. Living rurally there are very few petrol stations and I have to make a special trip to get petrol which used to be really annoying.
5. We am planning to get solar pv so reducing the emissions and running costs still further (and I am often at home in the day to charge).
6. This has become our main family car so is a good size for holidays - so a few times a year with long trips where we may not be able to charge much.
7. We want the option of occasional towing - sheep, pony, bike carrier (but not sufficient to warrant a diesel).
8. We love the quiet of an ev, the fun of avoiding using petrol, and being a trailblazer for new tech.

Does anyone need 99% of the cars on the road - we just need to get from a to b after all...
Cheers
H

 

[maby]

maby
Just to pick you up on the people who don't really need it point (and there are two sides to that - needing a 4x4/SUV and needing a plug in car). You could argue that nobody actually "needs" it, and I completely get your point re you just need to love the car when it comes down to it. But I also think that is perfect for us (and this or similar must apply to quite a few others) because:

1. 90%+ of my journeys are < 28 miles, running around the kids, shopping etc.
2. We have two kids so regularly need a large boot for pushchair, shopping, days out luggage etc.
3. I have resisted getting an SUV because I am not keen on "gas-guzzlers" unless you really need them. Although we do go to quite a few shows etc where it will be useful for parking on soft ground, and it should be better in flooding/winter weather.
4. Living rurally there are very few petrol stations and I have to make a special trip to get petrol which used to be really annoying.
5. We am planning to get solar pv so reducing the emissions and running costs still further (and I am often at home in the day to charge).
6. This has become our main family car so is a good size for holidays - so a few times a year with long trips where we may not be able to charge much.
7. We want the option of occasional towing - sheep, pony, bike carrier (but not sufficient to warrant a diesel).
8. We love the quiet of an ev, the fun of avoiding using petrol, and being a trailblazer for new tech.

Does anyone need 99% of the cars on the road - we just need to get from a to b after all...
Cheers
H

I'll agree 100% with all of that - and much of it corresponds with our reasons. My point is that real cost savings are quite low on your list - it is other characteristics of the car that are driving your choice. I don't think that it is hard to justify the purchase in terms of functionality and comfort but some of the reviews and comments here could easily lead people to buy PHEVs on expectations of unrealistic savings. Most people will not see major reductions in running costs.

 

[blastpipe]

Very useful thread - thank you as my weekly mileage at maximum is very similar to the OP - and giving a clear steer on whether to go for a PHEV or not.

 

[ensoruk]

Blastpipe - What is your thinking? Still considering the Outlander?

Agree with you entirely , great advice and expertise here. Very grateful for the info.

Phil

 

[ensoruk]

I had an extended test drive for a couple of days, and I'm really sorry to say that the PHEV just doesn't work for me.

My (shorter) commute of 70 miles used 10 litres , starting with a full charge. I was quite surprised... I blame the Tollbar End road works near Coventry !

I'm sure I could eek out a bit more, but doubtful it would be enough to make the numbers work.

I'm disappointed, such a great car in many respects, just not for my commute :-(

Once again, many thanks for all the knowledge sharing.

Phil

 

[maby]

I had an extended test drive for a couple of days, and I'm really sorry to say that the PHEV just doesn't work for me.

My (shorter) commute of 70 miles used 10 litres , starting with a full charge. I was quite surprised... I blame the Tollbar End road works near Coventry !

I'm sure I could eek out a bit more, but doubtful it would be enough to make the numbers work.

I'm disappointed, such a great car in many respects, just not for my commute :-(

Once again, many thanks for all the knowledge sharing.

Phil

There is something unusual about that - it seems to me that you were only getting around 22 mpg while running on petrol - it is capable of a lot better than that. How long were you stuck in the roadworks?

 

[greendwarf]

I had an extended test drive for a couple of days, and I'm really sorry to say that the PHEV just doesn't work for me.

My (shorter) commute of 70 miles used 10 litres , starting with a full charge. I was quite surprised... I blame the Tollbar End road works near Coventry !

Phil

There is something unusual about that - it seems to me that you were only getting around 22 mpg while running on petrol - it is capable of a lot better than that. How long were you stuck in the roadworks?

Hmm - this raises an interesting point. Does the ICE auto stop/start when crawling in traffic queues and you've used all the battery power? Presumably if you know about congestion ahead then ideally you use Save because (unless you sit in Drive holding it on the handbrake or have the air-con etc. on) you use no battery when stationary.

 

[maby]

...
Hmm - this raises an interesting point. Does the ICE auto stop/start when crawling in traffic queues and you've used all the battery power? Presumably if you know about congestion ahead then ideally you use Save because (unless you sit in Drive holding it on the handbrake or have the air-con etc. on) you use no battery when stationary.

I'm sure it does - the supposedly battery flat condition is believed to actually be about 20% battery. Starting the engine will consume some power, so after a period of short run stop/start driving it will be necessary to keep the engine running for a while to bring the charge level back up - you see this behaviour in a Prius caught in a traffic jam. I would have thought that the bigger impact in a traffic jam would be heating or aircon. Even in a GX4h, these are going to keep the engine running when the battery is flat. The temperature outside this morning (just north of London) was 8 degrees - I'm not prepared to sit in my brand new car wrapped up in multiple layers, so I had the climate control set to 20 degrees - with a flat battery, that would keep the engine on a lot of the time.

 

[maddogsetc]

Hmm - this raises an interesting point. Does the ICE auto stop/start when crawling in traffic queues and you've used all the battery power?

It will run the ICE just long enough to give a mile of EV range and then shut it down until that charge is used up. Fortunately I rarely get stuck in heavy traffic but I would expect to get pretty respectable economy out of it (without all the stress on the engine that modern stop/start ICE alternatives MUST suffer).

 

[Ozukus]

Hmm - this raises an interesting point. Does the ICE auto stop/start when crawling in traffic queues and you've used all the battery power?

It will run the ICE just long enough to give a mile of EV range and then shut it down until that charge is used up. Fortunately I rarely get stuck in heavy traffic but I would expect to get pretty respectable economy out of it (without all the stress on the engine that modern stop/start ICE alternatives MUST suffer).

Interesting to note that I have heard that some manufacturers are moving away from stop/start technology due to Mean Time Between Failure issues increasing costs to replace things under warranty.

 

[pheverish]

I had an extended test drive for a couple of days, and I'm really sorry to say that the PHEV just doesn't work for me.

My (shorter) commute of 70 miles used 10 litres , starting with a full charge. I was quite surprised... I blame the Tollbar End road works near Coventry !

I'm sure I could eek out a bit more, but doubtful it would be enough to make the numbers work.

I'm disappointed, such a great car in many respects, just not for my commute :-(

Once again, many thanks for all the knowledge sharing.

Phil

My daily commute is between 60 and 70 miles (return) starting with a full charge in the morning.
I have clocked up nearly 6000 miles, and I am averaging about 70mpg.
Slow travel through the road works will tend to use those bits of regenerated power, even though the display might be ---
The suggestion to use 'save' at high speed, and battery below 40mph has helped increase my average mpg from 60 - 70mpg.
Hope that helps with your decision.