For people not getting advertised range and are disappointed

[Trex]

Hi,

I will start this thread as I have had a certain person "highjack" my discussions I started here :

http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1499

and here:

http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1484

complaining about not getting the advertised range in ev mode that Mitsubishi "promised" or stated in their brochures etc or words to that effect. Indeed I have seen it mentioned quite regularly throughout the forum. I wish to discuss this in a rational manner.

Now I do not know how it is in other countries but Mitsubishi Australia (on their website and elsewhere) have been quite honest and upfront (and their dealers were with me also ) that you will not, I repeat not, get their advertised range in some circumstances. They have actually been telling some customers to buy the diesel Outlander as is would more suit their requirements. But lets look at what MOST modern ev vehicles were designed for:

"To get around the suburbs or cities where the majority of the population live using electric power."

Now you may not agree with this definition and when you have Tesla vehicles with their bigger batteries I would probably agree
but I will stick with the more common types of ev or plug-ins in this post because they are what the majority of us can afford.

So what are speed limits of the cities or suburbs that these ev cars were designed for well IMO I would say MAINLY 60kph or 35mph or less. Now before I get FLAMED for making that statement I know that cities have motorways or even tollways here in Australia that can pass through them where you can travel at higher speeds and sometimes even what we call 80kph zones here but in all my travels from here to USA, Canada, Asia, Europe and Great Britain 60kph or 35mph or less is MAINLY what you will see around the suburbs IMO. I am sure you will tell me if you think I am wrong. :lol:

So how does the Phev go at these MAINLY lower speeds? Well for me I can only get the "advertised" range in light traffic conditions ie not as many red lights or stopping. When I say the traffic is light I do not mean non existent. Now it has been inferred here in one of my discussions:

"Well, if any reader who is a PHEV owner is getting 32.5 miles after one year then all I can say is that they are extremely lucky or possibly when they make the assessment they are driving so benignly and carefully and perhaps not going above 30mph??? I drive my PHEV 'normally', not hard but just keeping with the traffic flow and it has NEVER done Mitsubishi's quoted mileage of 32.5 miles on a full charge."

that I must be doing less than legal speed limit to do so. I can assure people I am not because I will never try to hold other people up in their cars just to prove a point and I "hate" it when others do it to me. In some places in the world you may get into a fight for doing so!

Now am I pissed off with Mitsubishi that I can only get the advertised range in light traffic and MAINLY lower speeds. No. Because actually our Australian Government set the rules for how Mitsubishi test the ev range and other countries have similar rules and I can see how and why the governments have set them using certain criteria.

I will break up this post here so I can bring up some scientific facts which is why I brought up this discussion under the Technical section.

 

[Trex]

I will bring this Mitsubishi image supplied to me by anko from the sticky,


I wrote in the sticky:

"Now its says underneath that only 70% of the 12kwh hv battery in the Phev is used . 12 x 0.7 = 8.4

So there is only 8.4kwh usable in the hv battery.

Notice the top right side of the image where it shows 8.6 x 8.4 = 73km (8.6km/kwh from red box on display x 8.4kwh usable hv battery capacity gives 72.24km) in ev mode."

Note there is 8.4Kwh usable in the hv battery.

Now at 60kph (37mph) on a level road I see on the center display of my Phev 7.5Kw of power being used.

If we could find a road or a racetrack where we could drive and not have to stop travelling at 60kph and it is fairly flat and not counting the original acceleration energy of getting up to 60kph (37mph) we will travel roughly 67kms or about 41.5 miles for others

Just thought I would throw that out there.

Regards Trex.

Edit I should state the bleeding obvious that this no AC, no heating, tyres up to pressure, good weather etc etc for the 7.5KW reading I get on the display. :roll:

 

[Titan]

I'm going to add that my dealer was also extremely honest and open about the prospective mileage. At no point was I deceived into thinking I'd get 100+ miles per gallon or 30+ miles per charge on regular basis. I was however told that if used in ideal conditions it would be possible. I was also told that for either long or fast driving trips, the diesel version would be a better choice.

I have seen 35 projected miles displayed on my screen, though didn't achieve that because I had to go on faster A roads but it was nice seeing that after the winter months of only having 24 displayed.

But suffice to say, driving style will play a big part in extending range and anticipation plays a big part. I used to be a dispatch rider and laugh at those who, at traffic lights, would tear past me, only for me to cruise past them at the next set of traffic lights as they turned green when I reached them (only for them to tear past me again and me to pass them at the next set of lights).

 

[Trex]

But suffice to say, driving style will play a big part in extending range and anticipation plays a big part. I used to be a dispatch rider and laugh at those who, at traffic lights, would tear past me, only for me to cruise past them at the next set of traffic lights as they turned green when I reached them (only for them to tear past me again and me to pass them at the next set of lights).

Yes that's always fun to watch. :lol: :lol:

 

[user 816]

Battery range is a bigger issue in other countries than the UK because obviously its EV ability is its unique point so becomes the central focus rather tax. So I can understand a level of unhappiness if its primary feature seemed over-rated. Although as you point out the core ability is in fact there.

Its of less concern in the UK where the majority of PHEV's have gone to company car drivers with company fuel and the battery range is not important. Even though it had the usual EV advertising here as well most people know the official figures are distorted: all that matters is 44g/km. Dealers here wouldn't even try to suggest the diesel to company drivers here, at its price and company car tax level there are plenty of other SUV's to choose from.

So whether it does 15 miles or 50 miles on battery here is where I am at. First 6000 miles on the clock, lovely relaxing drive, £220 a month less tax to the government, I do between about 30 and 200 miles a day randomly for work and calculating fuel use via my fuel card and mileage average is 46 mpg. Happy bunny!

 

[gwatpe]

Its of less concern in the UK where the majority of PHEV's have gone to company car drivers with company fuel and the battery range is not important.

This seems so wrong. :x

 

[Kim]

Yes that's always fun to watch. :lol: :lol:

Naw... it's tragic...!

Still trying to find out if that behaviour can be put in relation to a persons IQ ... or maybe PQ...?!?
I do not know....

Same thing with the people who block crossways and crossing traffic cannot move at green light because of them.
One of those I'm going to ram, sooner or later... so much for my PQ... :lol:

 

[user 816]

Its of less concern in the UK where the majority of PHEV's have gone to company car drivers with company fuel and the battery range is not important.

This seems so wrong. :x

I agree, but its a case of being sadly necessary. Our governments see car drivers as an eternal pot of money that can be raided when they need more. Company car drivers are a captive money pot as simply no car = no work = no choice but pay up. I am not taxed on the tools I carry in the car so why should I be taxed ever more for the toolbox-on-wheels that carries them. I feel no guilt using the PHEV as a tax reducer.

Back on topic, I have had a lot of trouble explaining that the mpg figure is entirely dependent on usage. Someone doing lots of short journeys with a light foot could be getting 250 mpg, someone doing lots of long journeys could be getting 30 mpg so the official 148 mpg figure is neither right or wrong.

 

[maby]

Its of less concern in the UK where the majority of PHEV's have gone to company car drivers with company fuel and the battery range is not important.

This seems so wrong. :x

I agree, but its a case of being sadly necessary. Our governments see car drivers as an eternal pot of money that can be raided when they need more. Company car drivers are a captive money pot as simply no car = no work = no choice but pay up. I am not taxed on the tools I carry in the car so why should I be taxed ever more for the toolbox-on-wheels that carries them. I feel no guilt using the PHEV as a tax reducer.

Back on topic, I have had a lot of trouble explaining that the mpg figure is entirely dependent on usage. Someone doing lots of short journeys with a light foot could be getting 250 mpg, someone doing lots of long journeys could be getting 30 mpg so the official 148 mpg figure is neither right or wrong.

Anyone claiming better than about 160mpg is deluding themselves - at least if they live in the UK. Even if your petrol engine never fires up, the effective running costs for someone charging on UK electricity tariffs will equate to something in the region of 160 to 180mpg.

 

[greendwarf]

Its of less concern in the UK where the majority of PHEV's have gone to company car drivers with company fuel and the battery range is not important.

This seems so wrong. :x

And may not be true - what is Bob's source? I am the ideal PHEV owner (my dealer's description) as I usually do less than 25 miles per journey/day with only the occasional longer journey - yesterday first petrol used for almost 3 months. :mrgreen:

 

[user 816]

Its of less concern in the UK where the majority of PHEV's have gone to company car drivers with company fuel and the battery range is not important.

This seems so wrong. :x

And may not be true - what is Bob's source? I am the ideal PHEV owner (my dealer's description) as I usually do less than 25 miles per journey/day with only the occasional longer journey - yesterday first petrol used for almost 3 months. :mrgreen:

Mitsubishi knew it would be a big company car hit before it became even more massive than they dreamed. SUV's are a fast growing sector in the UK but their emissions are at odds with company car schemes. Many companies even set CO2 limits on what you can choose so many SUV's are not even on the menu. It was inevitable the PHEV would be big.

In just my own field service team, 3 drivers have chosen PHEV's since the start of the year and cars are only replaced every 4 years and all at different points so that is a really high take up. I know one of the owners has never, and never intends to charge it, he gets in each day with a flat battery and lets it do its zig-zag EV/ICE modes automatically. Across all the divisions many more have chosen it and there has been huge discussion on our social media about it.

http://www.am-online.com/roadtests/review/mitsubishi-outlander-phev-takes-price-out-of-the-ev-equation/36600/

"Mitsubishi estimates 3,000 Outlander PHEV registrations this year, with fleets expected to take the majority." That turned out to be a vast underestimate.

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Jun/Mitsubishi-to-grow-Outlander-PHEV-production-by-66-percent/0438015163

"The Outlander PHEV launched in the UK in April, priced the same as the equivalent top two trim levels with the 2.2-litre diesel engine and automatic gearbox. Set to have a fleet-heavy sales mix, it’s expected to account for 62% of UK Outlander volume and will increase its company car volume by 184%, the company said."

I think they got it vastly underestimated on fleet sales. There are far more company car drivers wanting to avoid thousands of pounds of tax, than there are private buyers with £35,000 to spend wanting to save a little bit of petrol.

 

[Stvtech]

Mitsubishi knew it would be a big company car hit before it became even more massive than they dreamed. SUV's are a fast growing sector in the UK but their emissions are at odds with company car schemes. Many companies even set CO2 limits on what you can choose so many SUV's are not even on the menu. It was inevitable the PHEV would be big.

Mitsubishi need make the most of it. In my own opinion, the massive success with this model is in bringing out the right model at the right time, when there was nothing else like it on the market.

After the typical two-year lease cycle comes to fruition, just watch company car drivers flood back to the likes of the Merc C350e and the inevitable alternative offerings that will be available come that time. For many company car drivers (if the attitude of some of my colleagues are anything to go by), the fit and finish of the Mitsu is very lacking compared to their existing German stabled transportation that they swan around in currently.

With Jaguar (as an example) having recently announced massive investment in new facilities to develop electric drivetrains in particular (in an effort to meet future emission standards), the game will very different in a year or two's time. I don't expect VAG to be sitting idle in that time either.

Even for myself, if the c350e had been available when I ordered my GX4, I might have still been sat in a Merc right now, even with its's shorter EV range.

 

[user 816]

Mitsubishi knew it would be a big company car hit before it became even more massive than they dreamed. SUV's are a fast growing sector in the UK but their emissions are at odds with company car schemes. Many companies even set CO2 limits on what you can choose so many SUV's are not even on the menu. It was inevitable the PHEV would be big.

Mitsubishi need make the most of it. In my own opinion, the massive success with this model is in bringing out the right model at the right time, when there was nothing else like it on the market.

After the typical two-year lease cycle comes to fruition, just watch company car drivers flood back to the likes of the Merc C350e and the inevitable alternative offerings that will be available come that time. For many company car drivers (if the attitude of some of my colleagues are anything to go by), the fit and finish of the Mitsu is very lacking compared to their existing German stabled transportation that they swan around in currently.

With Jaguar (as an example) having recently announced massive investment in new facilities to develop electric drivetrains in particular (in an effort to meet future emission standards), the game will very different in a year or two's time. I don't expect VAG to be sitting idle in that time either.

Even for myself, if the c350e had been available when I ordered my GX4, I might have still been sat in a Merc right now, even with its's shorter EV range.

I agree, although the interior is not brilliant by far, I find the comfort and ride and general refinement really good, I certainly feel happy toodling along any length trips. Its largely down to the effortless driving it requires.

Everyone is jumping on this bandwagon so there will be a big choice, even Mercedes S Class now comes in a plug in tax dodger version.

For a big emission BMW X5 that is high up the CO2 charge bands it will still make financial sense to stick a motor in it and get a lower official C02, especially as the percent charge is against a big BIK.

But at the lower end, the rising tax rates on the low CO2 bands in the next few years and the conventional cars reducing CO2 levels against their far cheaper BIK will probably kill the PHEV market. They would need to make it a lot more desirable or a lot cheaper.

If labour get in in the forthcoming election, a mixture of needing more money to spend and pressure from its eco sections and the SNP will mean they ramp up the company car tax rates even quicker, to save the planet of course for our own good :roll:

(and if the Nissan X-trail 1.6D had not been so weedy, or the New 1.6 160 bhp 4WD 129g/km Honda CR-V been available I may well have not been driving a PHEV either)

 

[duplo]

My commute to work is 45km, so I will be keenly monitoring the EV range....... If it ever arrives :evil:

 

[nick2b]

I find the moralistic 'alarm' posted by some about company car drivers buying the PHEV primarily for tax reasons a little hypocritical - when the alternative is using 2 tonnes of the earth's resources to do 22 miles a day! Hardly sweating the asset.

 

[Driver5]

But at the lower end, the rising tax rates on the low CO2 bands in the next few years and the conventional cars reducing CO2 levels against their far cheaper BIK will probably kill the PHEV market. They would need to make it a lot more desirable or a lot cheaper.

This is it.. when the Co2 BIK hits the high % in 4 years time, the RRP and higher co2 will make a PHEV not a cheap option,

 

[chasingamy]

Just to through my 2 cents in;

I don't get a company car allowance but do get a so called "car allowance" with fuel costs paid (though I am not sure how I am going to get my electricity bill paid by the company).
I could have bought a Land Rover, Jeep or X5 and only lost the free road tax and congestion charge pass; so I clearly didn't buy the Mitsu for BIK purposes.

Frankly, it was not the Outlanders build quality that attracted me either; its OK at best (I don't expect to hear the rattles that I do in a new car).

It was not the materials quality, which is not anywhere near VW, BMW or even Jeep or the sadly declining Merc.

It was not the design of the interior or exterior either. Though I am OK, even fine with the interior design, the exterior is pretty much bottom of the list in my book when compared to the above mentioned SportUts; though it not terrible, just not as nice looking as the others to me. I can say in fact, there has never been a car that Mitsu ever built, that I looked at and said, "that's what I'm talking about".

It was not the HMI either, lack of sticky buttons requiring I set my preference EVER FREAKING TIME I get into the car is aggravating. The GPS, forget about it, its so fiddly that it is almost unusable. In fact I find myself using the free app Waze on my iPhone much of the time instead, if for no other reason than I don't have to choose a language each time I use it and I CAN navigate to a post code for crying out loud!

Reading the above list of grievances might seem like I am unhappy with the car, but I am not. It is the greatest car I have ever owned and I have owned 28.
What I do like about it is the technology and the brilliant way Mitsu developed and melded the motor and ICE operations so nearly perfectly and seamlessly. I've always wanted an electric car and this to me is the first real option; no range anxiety and it is a normal looking car, not something made to "look like" an electric car, whatever that is. To me, it makes even the best old fashioned diesel/petrol cars seem like Model-Ts.
I love the ride quality (rattles aside) and the handling which is good for a 2 tonne sportute.
I love the low drama of driving it, silent, vibration free and no gearbox changing up and down.
I like the power delivery, pulls like a train at any speed, just point and shoot.
I love the ultra low petrol burn too. I have over 1000 miles on it and have burned just ~15 gallons. Even managed to get 40MPG during a 130 mile motorway trip on petrol alone; amazing for a nearly two tonne, 4 wheel drive of this size.
I like the fact that there was little or no upcharge between the PHEV and the diesel version and it was way cheaper than the other, old fashioned sportute options.
Finally, I love the smug feeling I get when I drive past the queue at the petrol station, see the looks on these poor saps faces as they pump petrol into their Model-T's tanks and wads of cash out of their bank accounts.

Clearly tax avoidance is a great thing, but that is not what makes the Outlander such a cool car to own for me.

 

[greendwarf]

Just to through my 2 cents in;

I don't get a company car allowance but do get a so called "car allowance" with fuel costs paid (though I am not sure how I am going to get my electricity bill paid by the company).
I could have bought a Land Rover, Jeep or X5 and only lost the free road tax and congestion charge pass; so I clearly didn't buy the Mitsu for BIK purposes.

Frankly, it was not the Outlanders build quality that attracted me either; its OK at best (I don't expect to hear the rattles that I do in a new car).

It was not the materials quality, which is not anywhere near VW, BMW or even Jeep or the sadly declining Merc.

It was not the design of the interior or exterior either. Though I am OK, even fine with the interior design, the exterior is pretty much bottom of the list in my book when compared to the above mentioned SportUts; though it not terrible, just not as nice looking as the others to me. I can say in fact, there has never been a car that Mitsu ever built, that I looked at and said, "that's what I'm talking about".

It was not the HMI either, lack of sticky buttons requiring I set my preference EVER FREAKING TIME I get into the car is aggravating. The GPS, forget about it, its so fiddly that it is almost unusable. In fact I find myself using the free app Waze on my iPhone much of the time instead, if for no other reason than I don't have to choose a language each time I use it and I CAN navigate to a post code for crying out loud!

Reading the above list of grievances might seem like I am unhappy with the car, but I am not. It is the greatest car I have ever owned and I have owned 28.
What I do like about it is the technology and the brilliant way Mitsu developed and melded the motor and ICE operations so nearly perfectly and seamlessly. I've always wanted an electric car and this to me is the first real option; no range anxiety and it is a normal looking car, not something made to "look like" an electric car, whatever that is. To me, it makes even the best old fashioned diesel/petrol cars seem like Model-Ts.
I love the ride quality (rattles aside) and the handling which is good for a 2 tonne sportute.
I love the low drama of driving it, silent, vibration free and no gearbox changing up and down.
I like the power delivery, pulls like a train at any speed, just point and shoot.
I love the ultra low petrol burn too. I have over 1000 miles on it and have burned just ~15 gallons. Even managed to get 40MPG during a 130 mile motorway trip on petrol alone; amazing for a nearly two tonne, 4 wheel drive of this size.
I like the fact that there was little or no upcharge between the PHEV and the diesel version and it was way cheaper than the other, old fashioned sportute options.
Finally, I love the smug feeling I get when I drive past the queue at the petrol station, see the looks on these poor saps faces as they pump petrol into their Model-T's tanks and wads of cash out of their bank accounts.

Clearly tax avoidance is a great thing, but that is not what makes the Outlander such a cool car to own for me.

+1

 

[Titan]

Just to through my 2 cents in;

I don't get a company car allowance but do get a so called "car allowance" with fuel costs paid (though I am not sure how I am going to get my electricity bill paid by the company).
I could have bought a Land Rover, Jeep or X5 and only lost the free road tax and congestion charge pass; so I clearly didn't buy the Mitsu for BIK purposes.

Frankly, it was not the Outlanders build quality that attracted me either; its OK at best (I don't expect to hear the rattles that I do in a new car).

It was not the materials quality, which is not anywhere near VW, BMW or even Jeep or the sadly declining Merc.

It was not the design of the interior or exterior either. Though I am OK, even fine with the interior design, the exterior is pretty much bottom of the list in my book when compared to the above mentioned SportUts; though it not terrible, just not as nice looking as the others to me. I can say in fact, there has never been a car that Mitsu ever built, that I looked at and said, "that's what I'm talking about".

It was not the HMI either, lack of sticky buttons requiring I set my preference EVER FREAKING TIME I get into the car is aggravating. The GPS, forget about it, its so fiddly that it is almost unusable. In fact I find myself using the free app Waze on my iPhone much of the time instead, if for no other reason than I don't have to choose a language each time I use it and I CAN navigate to a post code for crying out loud!

Reading the above list of grievances might seem like I am unhappy with the car, but I am not. It is the greatest car I have ever owned and I have owned 28.
What I do like about it is the technology and the brilliant way Mitsu developed and melded the motor and ICE operations so nearly perfectly and seamlessly. I've always wanted an electric car and this to me is the first real option; no range anxiety and it is a normal looking car, not something made to "look like" an electric car, whatever that is. To me, it makes even the best old fashioned diesel/petrol cars seem like Model-Ts.
I love the ride quality (rattles aside) and the handling which is good for a 2 tonne sportute.
I love the low drama of driving it, silent, vibration free and no gearbox changing up and down.
I like the power delivery, pulls like a train at any speed, just point and shoot.
I love the ultra low petrol burn too. I have over 1000 miles on it and have burned just ~15 gallons. Even managed to get 40MPG during a 130 mile motorway trip on petrol alone; amazing for a nearly two tonne, 4 wheel drive of this size.
I like the fact that there was little or no upcharge between the PHEV and the diesel version and it was way cheaper than the other, old fashioned sportute options.
Finally, I love the smug feeling I get when I drive past the queue at the petrol station, see the looks on these poor saps faces as they pump petrol into their Model-T's tanks and wads of cash out of their bank accounts.

Clearly tax avoidance is a great thing, but that is not what makes the Outlander such a cool car to own for me.

+1 though I'm a private buyer and don't get anything back from anybody.

 

[greendwarf]

Just to through my 2 cents in;

I don't get a company car allowance but do get a so called "car allowance" with fuel costs paid (though I am not sure how I am going to get my electricity bill paid by the company).
I could have bought a Land Rover, Jeep or X5 and only lost the free road tax and congestion charge pass; so I clearly didn't buy the Mitsu for BIK purposes.

Frankly, it was not the Outlanders build quality that attracted me either; its OK at best (I don't expect to hear the rattles that I do in a new car).

It was not the materials quality, which is not anywhere near VW, BMW or even Jeep or the sadly declining Merc.

It was not the design of the interior or exterior either. Though I am OK, even fine with the interior design, the exterior is pretty much bottom of the list in my book when compared to the above mentioned SportUts; though it not terrible, just not as nice looking as the others to me. I can say in fact, there has never been a car that Mitsu ever built, that I looked at and said, "that's what I'm talking about".

It was not the HMI either, lack of sticky buttons requiring I set my preference EVER FREAKING TIME I get into the car is aggravating. The GPS, forget about it, its so fiddly that it is almost unusable. In fact I find myself using the free app Waze on my iPhone much of the time instead, if for no other reason than I don't have to choose a language each time I use it and I CAN navigate to a post code for crying out loud!

Reading the above list of grievances might seem like I am unhappy with the car, but I am not. It is the greatest car I have ever owned and I have owned 28.
What I do like about it is the technology and the brilliant way Mitsu developed and melded the motor and ICE operations so nearly perfectly and seamlessly. I've always wanted an electric car and this to me is the first real option; no range anxiety and it is a normal looking car, not something made to "look like" an electric car, whatever that is. To me, it makes even the best old fashioned diesel/petrol cars seem like Model-Ts.
I love the ride quality (rattles aside) and the handling which is good for a 2 tonne sportute.
I love the low drama of driving it, silent, vibration free and no gearbox changing up and down.
I like the power delivery, pulls like a train at any speed, just point and shoot.
I love the ultra low petrol burn too. I have over 1000 miles on it and have burned just ~15 gallons. Even managed to get 40MPG during a 130 mile motorway trip on petrol alone; amazing for a nearly two tonne, 4 wheel drive of this size.
I like the fact that there was little or no upcharge between the PHEV and the diesel version and it was way cheaper than the other, old fashioned sportute options.
Finally, I love the smug feeling I get when I drive past the queue at the petrol station, see the looks on these poor saps faces as they pump petrol into their Model-T's tanks and wads of cash out of their bank accounts.

Clearly tax avoidance is a great thing, but that is not what makes the Outlander such a cool car to own for me.

+1 though I'm a private buyer and don't get anything back from anybody.

+1