For people disappointed with Range in EV.

[Trex]

Hi folks,

Now in May 2015 I discussed this topic over in the Technical section when my 1st PHEV (bought new) was about 1 year old so remember my drive battery was in a better condition than now but I still think the information is relevant. Now some of this is just copied and paste from that discussion to make it easier for me and I have deleted or changed some bits to make it more relevant for today.

So lets get onto the topic.

So for people disappointed about not getting the advertised range in EV mode that Mitsubishi stated in their brochures etc . I wish to discuss this in a rational manner.

Now I do not know how it is in other countries but Mitsubishi Australia (on their website and elsewhere) have been quite honest and upfront (their dealers were with me also ) that you will not, I repeat not, get their advertised range in some circumstances. They have actually been telling some customers to buy the diesel Outlander as is would more suit their requirements. But lets look at what MOST modern EV vehicles were designed for:

Well I think they were designed to get around the suburbs or cities where the majority of the population live using electric power.

Now you may not agree with this statement and when you have vehicles like the Tesla with their bigger batteries I would probably agree. But I will stick with smaller drive battery types like our PHEV.

So what are speed limits of the cities or suburbs that I think these EV vehicles were designed for well IMO I would say MAINLY 60kph or 35mph or less. Now before I get FLAMED for making that statement I know that cities have motorways or even tollways here in Australia that can pass through them where you can travel at higher speeds and sometimes even what we call 80kph zones here but in all my travels from here to North America, Asia, Europe and Great Britain and certain islands in the Pacific 60kph or 35mph or less is MAINLY what you will see around the suburbs IMO. I am sure you will tell me if you think I am wrong.

So how does the Phev go at these MAINLY lower speeds? Well for me I can only get the "advertised" range of about 50 kms (when the PHEV is new) in light traffic conditions ie not as many red lights or stopping. When I say the traffic is light I do not mean non existent. This is with no heating or A/C and good weather ie no rain etc.

Now am I pissed off with Mitsubishi that I can only get the advertised range in light traffic and MAINLY lower speeds. No. Because actually our Australian Government set the rules for how Mitsubishi test the EV range and other countries have similar rules I think or use a certain standard.

I will break up this post here and continue this later.

 

[Trex]

Now I will bring in a image from the sticky I started in the Technical section of the forum:

Ok I only put this in for mainly what it says underneath.



Now its says underneath that only 70% of the 12kWhh HV battery in the Phev is used . 12 x 0.7 = 8.4

So there is only 8.4kWh usable in the High Voltage (HV) drive battery.

Notice the top right side of the image where it shows 8.6 x 8.4 = 73km (8.6km/kWh from red box on display x 8.4kWh usable HV battery capacity gives 72.24km) in ev mode.

If only I could get those figures. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:...... I am still laughing.

It also says if we can get 17kWh/100km or less in the display where the red box is we should get about 50km or more in ev mode.

Around town where I live (60kph speed limit) when the traffic is light (very few red lights) I can get about 50kms.

Now there being approx 8.4 kWh usable from the drive battery when the PHEV is new lets look at this.

Now at 60kph (37mph) on a level road I see on the center display of my Phev 7.5 kW of power being used.

If we could find a road or a racetrack where we could drive and not have to stop travelling at 60kph and it is fairly flat and not counting the original acceleration energy of getting up to 60kph (37mph) we will travel roughly 67kms or about 41.5 miles for others.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

Regards Trex.

Ps I should state that this is with is no AC, no heating, tyres up to pressure, good weather etc etc for the 7.5 kW reading I get on the display.

The image was from MMC and kindly provided to me by anko.

edit Bring in full section from sticky.

 

[maby]

I think that the issue on this side of the world was that Mitsubishi were very pleased to follow the government testing line regarding EV range and some of their early advertising gave an unrealistic expectation. Having been a Prius owner, I did understand the likely discrepancy between the laboratory figures and reality on the road, but I am not surprised that some of those early puchasers with no prior experience of hybrid or pure EVs felt hard done by.

 

[mellobob]

Before we start to compare with Tesla and even Kia ... remember:

1. We have a very large SUV, not a sleek and sporty piece of eye-candy,

2. Weight, weight, weight ... ours is bigger, so it weighs more,

3. AWD ... important for some of us living in snowy, hilly places,

4. Cost ... I think I can get 2 to 3 PHEVs for the cost of 1 Tesla.

 

[Kesto]

A PHEV is a PHEV and should not be compared with BEV and on this forum I often see the drift. Once we accept we are driving PHEV and have to put in petrol from time to time we are at peace !!

 

[HHL]

In my experience after having owned my PHEV for 3 1/2 years, it uses around 200Wh/km in suburban driving conditions. That equates to about 42km from the usable battery capacity. This is the actual measured energy that comes out of the power point to recharge it!
So, for me, being semi retired and mainly using the car locally, this is perfectly adequate and for many working people doing the average commute at around 30km/day it should be too. In my opinion, this type of use is what this car was primarily designed for and it does it very well. Anyone who far exceeds that daily mileage and therefore fully cycles the battery, perhaps even more than once a day, should probably look at some other vehicle as it will not live up to expectations. Comparing fuel usage on longer trips with a diesel or petrol powered car, while interesting, it is really pointless because it isn't designed to be a regular long distance car. The same goes for people who wish to regularly tow, while it can do it, it would not be my first choice.
The only real concern is when the car is out of warranty. Should it need any of the electronic bits or, heavens forbid, a battery cell, one is pretty well at the mercy of Mitsubishi dealers. Some of the prices for spares I have heard about are very scary......

 

[elm70]

How much Mitsubishi Australia pays for promote the "brand" with disinformation?


8.6km/kwh even at 60km/h is not realistic, unless in a very long downhill

8.6km/kwh is 11.6kwh/100km... Everybody owning the PHEV watch dog knows well this consumption level is impossible

Trex, instead of insulting me as your usual, prove your words with a snapshot from the watch dog application, else as always is just hot air propaganda

 

[OldSteve]

It seems to me after several months of ownership in the UK that the 2 factors which most affect EV range are temperature and speed. I agree that if you mainly drive gently and below 50mph (80kph) the range achievable is close to the advertised one if the temperature is not too low. Recently with temperatures not much above freezing range seems to be some 66% of that achieved at higher temperatures. Overall though I am happy with the performance of my car in both EV and petrol modes given that it is a large, heavy and unaerodynamic 4x4.

 

[Trex]

....................and some of their early advertising gave an unrealistic expectation.

Maby, does this mean that their recent advertising is now more realistic?

 

[Trex]

Before we start to compare with Tesla and even Kia ... remember:

1. We have a very large SUV, not a sleek and sporty piece of eye-candy,

2. Weight, weight, weight ... ours is bigger, so it weighs more,

3. AWD ... important for some of us living in snowy, hilly places,

4. Cost ... I think I can get 2 to 3 PHEVs for the cost of 1 Tesla.

:lol: :lol: love that bit about the "not a sleek and sporty piece of eye-candy".

 

[Trex]

A PHEV is a PHEV and should not be compared with BEV and on this forum I often see the drift. Once we accept we are driving PHEV and have to put in petrol from time to time we are at peace !!

Hey Kesto, would that be "inner peace" :lol: Hope you remember that movie.

 

[Trex]

The only real concern is when the car is out of warranty. Should it need any of the electronic bits or, heavens forbid, a battery cell, one is pretty well at the mercy of Mitsubishi dealers. Some of the prices for spares I have heard about are very scary......

Ok HHL to me that is not a big concern. For example you can get extended warranty or there may be aftermarket options or buy parts from a wrecked car etc. There are many ways to buy parts and not pay dealer prices.

 

[Trex]

How much Mitsubishi Australia pays for promote the "brand" with disinformation?


8.6km/kwh even at 60km/h is not realistic, unless in a very long downhill

8.6km/kwh is 11.6kwh/100km... Everybody owning the PHEV watch dog knows well this consumption level is impossible

Trex, instead of insulting me as your usual, prove your words with a snapshot from the watch dog application, else as always is just hot air propaganda

So you come into the thread I started and insult me by saying Mitsubishi Australia is paying me to deliberately deceive by spreading false information (Disinformation) and then tell me not to insult you in return.

You have got to be kidding right? This must be a joke surely. Seriously, are you on drugs?

Did you even read what I wrote in that post like:

Now from underneath this image Mitsubishi state there is only 70% of our 12 kWh battery usable ie .7 x 12 = 8.4 kWh usable when our battery is new.

The image was from MMC and kindly provided to me by anko.

It is NOT me travelling at 60 kph and getting 8.6km/kwh it was just an example given by Mitsubishi in their Technical Training Guide and we do NOT know what speed they were travelling at. For all I know they could have been travelling around a racetrack at 30 kph.

If I do NOT get an apology from you I will be asking the MODS to remove you from this forum or if others here, that I respect, really think that Mitsubishi Australia is paying me to deliberately deceive by spreading false information, or even paying me at all, I will certainly leave this forum.

 

[elm70]

I don't know who is on drugs and who might needs drugs ... let's keep this aside.

I don't believe that be paid by Mitsubishi it is an insult ... actually I believe people need to have some skills for be paid by them ... so ... I assumed I wasn't insulting anybody.

Anyhow ... the screen shot on page 1 here is very very unclear

Nowhere is stated 60km/h

There is picture showing 8.6km/kwh ... next to the 23.1km/l ... so it sounds this electric consumption was in conjunction with petrol usage .. so it is looking very wrong to assume this PHEV can make 73km in EV mode.

Anyhow ... what I don't understand is your need to overpride this Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV

I got the impression that you did all your best for pass the message that battery degradation is not an issue

And now here you try to state that the EV range is even better then the declared one of 52km.

People that owns this PHEV knows well what is the true ... it is enough to check on facebook on the PHEVwatchDOg page to see the real data data from real people.

I'm not trying to say that his PHEV is bad .... but we should not hide that the battery degradation it is a real concern in this PHEV

And range ... we should know that advertised 52km it is almost in ideal condition ... so, yes, it is an achievable range (it could be even possible to do better, driving very slow, or with a downhill in the path) ... but the reality is that EV range is normally less then 52km ... even without AC or cabin heating.

My personal record has been 48km ... that is not too bad for a 4y old PHEV ... and it was done in summer, with never going faster then 80km/h with most of the km done on a motorway and without any traffic or any stop and go situation.

Now in winter without AC and cabin heating ... if I do 35km in EV is already a "success" .. the normality is more 30km (without cabin heating .. yes I travel in a cold car , but with heated seats, for save fuel :ugeek: )

Anyhow ... winter is too generic ... when temperature is -5C .. EV range is noticeable less then when temperature is +5C

BTW: EV range is tricky ... sometime people/drive condition can use 75% of the battery ... sometime only 70% of the capacity ... sometime even less .. since if the car is not fresh charged .. the SOC is normally below 100% after few minutes or hours of rest from charging completed ... anyhow ... EV range is proportional to SOC and SOH ... and it needs lot of attention to manage less then 20kwh/100km ... so 5km/kwh is already a good result ... my record has been ~16kwh/100km ... that is around 6.25km/kwh .. that bring to a ideal max EV range with a 100% SOH and SOC .. to exactly 52.5km EV range ... exactly as advertised by Mitsubishi

 

[HHL]

The only real concern is when the car is out of warranty. Should it need any of the electronic bits or, heavens forbid, a battery cell, one is pretty well at the mercy of Mitsubishi dealers. Some of the prices for spares I have heard about are very scary......

Ok HHL to me that is not a big concern. For example you can get extended warranty or there may be aftermarket options or buy parts from a wrecked car etc. There are many ways to buy parts and not pay dealer prices.

That is true for mechanical bits, but I have found out from a friend who went down that route to install a wi-fi module, and they are coded to the vin number, only dealers (or some russian websites ) seem to have the tools (software) to install some electronic bits. Anyway, as time goes on there will probably be some solutions.

 

[Trex]

I don't believe that be paid by Mitsubishi it is an insult ... actually I believe people need to have some skills for be paid by them ... so ... I assumed I wasn't insulting anybody.

Ok, you need to stop the BS now. You have accused me of being paid by Mitsubishi Australia for promoting the brand with disinformation. The meaning of disinformation is:- to deliberately deceive by spreading false information (disinformation) or false information spread deliberately to deceive (disinformation) . I have given you a chance to man up and give me an apology.

And now here you try to state that the EV range is even better then the declared one of 52km.

I did NOT state this. This is BS again. I wrote:

Well for me I can only get the "advertised" range of about 50 kms (when the PHEV is new) in light traffic conditions ie not as many red lights or stopping. When I say the traffic is light I do not mean non existent. This is with no heating or A/C and good weather ie no rain etc.

This BS needs to stop now and I am getting in touch with the mods. This needs to be sorted once and for all IMHO.

 

[elm70]

Speaking about BS

It is NOT me travelling at 60 kph and getting 8.6km/kwh it was just an example given by Mitsubishi in their Technical Training Guide and we do NOT know what speed they were travelling at. For all I know they could have been travelling around a racetrack at 30 kph.

If I do NOT get an apology from you I will be asking the MODS to remove you from this forum or if others here, that I respect, really think that Mitsubishi Australia is paying me to deliberately deceive by spreading false information, or even paying me at all, I will certainly leave this forum.

What is above, and in page 1 is 100% BS

See the reference picture below taken from page 1

The screen shot show an average EV consumption of 8.6km/kwh and 23.1km/L ... so .. the PHEV was using both battery and petrol.

So ... the possible EV range of 73km based on that data is 100% BS

For me the question is :

Do you spam BS intentionally or "by accident" ?
So .. you don't understand the PHEV which you own (not 1, you own 2 PHEVs, which is quite unique for somebody that has in theory nothing to do with Mitsubishi) ... or you like to make false propaganda ?

 

[jaapv]

I would like to remind members that I am not a moderator any more. So I will get a packet of popcorn and watch the show. However, as an ex-moderator I would like to remind the participants that this is just a forum about a car; taking the discussion down to politicians-brawl level is not really productive...

 

[Trex]

The screen shot show an average EV consumption of 8.6km/kwh and 23.1km/L ... so .. the PHEV was using both battery and petrol.

So ... the possible EV range of 73km based on that data is 100% BS

:lol: :lol:

If you can travel slow enough to get at least 8.6km/kwh x the approx 8.4 kWh usable when our battery is new around a flat racetrack for example, for the entirety of the trip, you will get approx 73 kph of EV distance travelled.

...... PHEV which you own (not 1, you own 2 PHEVs, which is quite unique for somebody that has in theory nothing to do with Mitsubishi) ...

Ok we might be getting to the gist of your problem here with me IMHO.

You are jealous of me I reckon. I have bought 2 PHEVs which my family love when you only bought one from memory. Yep I work hard running my own engineering business and can afford 2 PHEVs.

I actually might buy a 3rd PHEV when the new 2.4L Atkinson model gets here so my youngest son gets to drive one.

But then I will be still driving my manly ute. :roll: Plus I need that ute for work for picking up parts etc that get loaded and unloaded with a crane .

Cannot wait for Mitsubishi to bring out the Triton ute in a PHEV so I can buy one. Then I will be in heaven. Or :idea: I could cut the back roof off a Outlander PHEV and make it into a ute. That could be a plan.

Ok this will be the last communication I ever have with you as I will now be making you a FOE in the user control panel and your new comments and jealousy and lies will never show on my screen again. Thank god for that.

Sayonara. :lol:

 

[elm70]

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