Drive battery degradation and replacement.

[HHL]

If the car is always charged fully from the AC supply, the BMU estimate of SOH is probably quite accurate.

I am not sure about this statement HHL. Now from the person on youtube I posted above says:

"Had the 2018 phev since Feb. After 20.000 km and battery capacity down to 93%according to watchdog, had car inspection and they suggested battery reprogramming, and they did a dbcam procedure. Since then battery capacity upto and remains at 98,5% and have driven 1000 km. My garage(Germany) doesn't understand all these problems, so the most important thing when buying a phev, which I love and am very happy with it.,is the 3xperience and quality of expertise at your garage. The extra education of the mechanics is expensive so my garage tells me."

Now we cannot tell from this if the person used DC charging but reading what he said made me go and check my new April 2018 PHEV and saw that the SOH was 91.84% with only 12,823 kms using EVbatmon. So according to the BMU I have lost approx 8% in approx 9 months with no DC charging and we have been babying the new PHEV's drive battery far more than my oldest PHEV.

Speaking of which ie my oldest PHEV you asked me back in the old Evbatmon thread I started:

Same here... works a treat.

Use an old Nextbook to run it. Very impressive....

My battery % is 91.4% (car built date is Mar 2014, 11,000km)

Care to share your info?

Sure.

Battery condition 90%.

Car built Feb 2014(bought April 2014), 31,415kms

Now this was posted Sun Dec 27, 2015 so nearly 2 years after it was built my oldest PHEV that we did not baby is approx the same as my new PHEV that we do. :roll:

Do I think my new PHEV is degraded this bad for real? No I do not. I think the BMU is being very pessimistic on the new PHEVs as some around here have noticed including the person I quoted above.

Will I bother to get my BMU recalibrated at this stage? Not sure. I may wait to see because it is not effecting the range we need while EVing but I would love to know for sure like the person I quoted above just to satisfy my curiosity.

Interesting about the new one's SOH. Anyway, I do think the less dealers fiddle with the car the better it is ;-). As for a certain Youtube enthusiast's exploits, I do think the engineers who designed this car deserve a bit more credit. When you look at the few recalls, all of them quite minor, it is an incredible achievement with a car of this complexity.

 

[Trex]

Interesting about the new one's SOH. Anyway, I do think the less dealers fiddle with the car the better it is ;-). As for a certain Youtube enthusiast's exploits, I do think the engineers who designed this car deserve a bit more credit. When you look at the few recalls, all of them quite minor, it is an incredible achievement with a car of this complexity.

"certain Youtube enthusiast's exploits" Who you talking about? Don't be shy. :lol:

Yea I think the engineers have done a great job as well. Is the PHEV perfect? Not IMO. But as an design engineer myself I know we cannot make everyone happy. We have budgets and sales projections to consider as well as technology and physical constraints etc. But we try our best to make the product better as technology gets better etc.

 

[anko]

Well it all changed when anko (yes the same anko you still see here floating around sometimes) decoded the Canbus. Now we have multiple apps to show our SOH of the drive battery and other things.

Recognition. Thank you

:lol: That would my pleasure anko. You did good work. Though sometimes I curse you like when I checked my new PHEV's SOH. :lol:

:lol: :lol: #metoo

 

[Tai626]

In Australia it "seems" to be 80% after 10 years. At least for a happy few. As in good will, no warranty

Hi anko. So who are the "happy few" you mention? Is this something I have missed? :?

Auch. I guess you have fallen behind. YouTube 'celebrity' Andy from EVUnplugged Australia has led the rebellion against MMAL and this resulted in his battery (and maybe one or two others) to be replaced on short notice. Not because of warranty but because of goodwill

He needed about 140 short VLOGs and this is the final one in which he announces the results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_FCXE0gKzo&t=280s

Look like he swapped PHEV for a Tesla...just for a day.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9BxB7iHDSbI

Tai

 

[Trex]

Hi folks,

As my old degradation thread is now 36 pages :shock: long I will start a new one here as the old one has a lot of out of date information.

Now just to catch up of where I am currently with my oldest PHEV's drive battery which my oldest son now drives is we had below 80% SOH (about 77%) in Feb 2018.

After stuffing about with different dealers where the first could not get his MUT-III to communicate with my PHEV I finally got another dealer to get some tests done. It was there where they did a battery smoothing (cell balancing from what I could see) and a Auto Capacity Measured Procedure which empties the battery and measures what it takes to refill it and then adjusts the BMU SOH to include the new result. For me it took the SOH up to about 81% . Now the other day my son and I checked his drive battery and it was showing about 72% SOH so the gain did not last long so I will be trying to get a new drive battery before the 5 year warranty runs out in April.

But will have probably have to get another Auto Capacity Measured Procedure done again though.

Regards Trex.

After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:

 

[anko]

Auch.

 

[Trex]

Auch.

I would go so far as calling it a double Auch. :roll:

 

[plugev]

Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable?

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?

Thanks

 

[Zuikkis]

I tried PHEV Watchdog with "KONNWEI" bluetooth adapter. It works otherwise fine, but I can't get it display the "battery condition" page. It's always blank. I waited like 5 minutes in case it was just being slow, but no. Other pages work fine.

However, I installed EvBatMon, it shows the stats correctly. It showed 34Ah capacity and 91%, but are these comparable to PHEV Watchdogs values? Pretty good still? MY15 car, registered in 08/14, with 71000km.

I unistalled EvBatMon already, Play store gives the money back if you uninstall in 10 minutes or so.. I'm not interested in using these apps daily, but I thought it's good to check the stats.

 

[elm70]

Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable?

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?

Thanks

Welcome pughev

In Australia, till recently, they did advertise that the Outlander PHEV should not go below 80% of SOH in the car life. Car life has been later stated to be 10y

Some people in Australia (I don't know if they made any legal action, but you might check Andy on facebook or on his YouTube channel) have got an agreement to have their battery replaced for free from Mitsubishi for 10y, if the battery goes below 80% SOH.

You might use this as precedent with Mitsubishi Australia, and in case they would ignore this, contact Andy or other which got the agreement with Mitsubishi.

Since Mitsubishi Australia made a mistake on their advertisement ... In my view every PHEV acquired before the correction, he/she has the right to get a new/replaced battery for free once this go below 80% SOH

PS: I think the main problem of the Outlander PHEV in Australia ... it is to let the car sit with high SOC under the sun or with very hot ambient temperature ... so this can impact PHEV with low km as well with high km ... maybe more the low km models which might have sit plugged on the charger in a hot environment for many hours and many days. Unfortunately the PHEV active battery cooling is not active while the car sit unused

 

[elm70]

I tried PHEV Watchdog with "KONNWEI" bluetooth adapter. It works otherwise fine, but I can't get it display the "battery condition" page. It's always blank. I waited like 5 minutes in case it was just being slow, but no. Other pages work fine.

However, I installed EvBatMon, it shows the stats correctly. It showed 34Ah capacity and 91%, but are these comparable to PHEV Watchdogs values? Pretty good still? MY15 car, registered in 08/14, with 71000km.

I unistalled EvBatMon already, Play store gives the money back if you uninstall in 10 minutes or so.. I'm not interested in using these apps daily, but I thought it's good to check the stats.

A bit off topic

Battery Condition with PhevWatchDog is present in the 2nd page (so 1 swipe left, from the starting page that is page 3)
The Battery Condition menu in the PhevWatchDog ... is based on archived data ... so maybe on your first usage, it did still not created the needed records for display properly this page.

Both EvBatMon and PheVWatchDog report battery condition consistently .. especially if you look at the Ah result .. the % result might be wrong in some cases since latest PHEV have 44Ah as new, vs 38Ah from the initial PHEV ... I'm not sure if any of the two application detect precisely which PHEV is new and which is an old one

 

[Zuikkis]

Ah indeed, you are right.. Silly me.

PHEV Watchdog is showing the same values.

I attached the screenshot mostly because of the hilarious add placement. "Diesel never dies"

 

[misterbishi]

Hi folks,

As my old degradation thread is now 36 pages :shock: long I will start a new one here as the old one has a lot of out of date information.

Now just to catch up of where I am currently with my oldest PHEV's drive battery which my oldest son now drives is we had below 80% SOH (about 77%) in Feb 2018.

After stuffing about with different dealers where the first could not get his MUT-III to communicate with my PHEV I finally got another dealer to get some tests done. It was there where they did a battery smoothing (cell balancing from what I could see) and a Auto Capacity Measured Procedure which empties the battery and measures what it takes to refill it and then adjusts the BMU SOH to include the new result. For me it took the SOH up to about 81% . Now the other day my son and I checked his drive battery and it was showing about 72% SOH so the gain did not last long so I will be trying to get a new drive battery before the 5 year warranty runs out in April.

But will have probably have to get another Auto Capacity Measured Procedure done again though.

Regards Trex.

After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:

From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.

 

[Trex]

Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable

Gday plugev,

I suppose the first thing I would ask is are you having trouble getting to your destination in EV on your daily commute?

Now we have a transferable 5 year warranty, from memory, before anything else that may apply so you have time on your side IMO.

But only you can decide whether the lack of range is affecting you.

Now if you decide that you want to do something about your drive battery then we can talk about that later but I am pretty sure you will need to get your BMU (Battery Management Unit ) recalibrated to show the true capacity or SOH. Just look back earlier in this thread to see what I am talking about.

Also, the car is due for a 3yr service and I have been quoted $930, $850 and $680 to do the service (in Brisbane, Australia), do these amounts seem reasonable for what looks like a basic oil/filter change, a pollen filter, plus 'looking at' a list of things?

Ok to me those amounts sound excessive but my dealer is in a "town" in NSW compared to a city like Brisbane where they seem to know how to charge more for even a basic service like a schooner of beer.

Now I have just had a 5 year service done on my oldest PHEV (bought new) about 2 weeks ago so I will have a look around and see if I can see the price I paid for the 3 year service a couple of years ago.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

I tried PHEV Watchdog with "KONNWEI" bluetooth adapter. It works otherwise fine, but I can't get it display the "battery condition" page. It's always blank. I waited like 5 minutes in case it was just being slow, but no. Other pages work fine.

However, I installed EvBatMon, it shows the stats correctly. It showed 34Ah capacity and 91%, but are these comparable to PHEV Watchdogs values? Pretty good still? MY15 car, registered in 08/14, with 71000km.

I unistalled EvBatMon already, Play store gives the money back if you uninstall in 10 minutes or so.. I'm not interested in using these apps daily, but I thought it's good to check the stats.

Yes IMO 91% @ 71000km is going good.

I actually prefer the EVbatmon app compared to the PHEV Watchdog but that is just my opinion.

 

[Trex]

Hi folks,

As my old degradation thread is now 36 pages :shock: long I will start a new one here as the old one has a lot of out of date information.

Now just to catch up of where I am currently with my oldest PHEV's drive battery which my oldest son now drives is we had below 80% SOH (about 77%) in Feb 2018.

After stuffing about with different dealers where the first could not get his MUT-III to communicate with my PHEV I finally got another dealer to get some tests done. It was there where they did a battery smoothing (cell balancing from what I could see) and a Auto Capacity Measured Procedure which empties the battery and measures what it takes to refill it and then adjusts the BMU SOH to include the new result. For me it took the SOH up to about 81% . Now the other day my son and I checked his drive battery and it was showing about 72% SOH so the gain did not last long so I will be trying to get a new drive battery before the 5 year warranty runs out in April.

But will have probably have to get another Auto Capacity Measured Procedure done again though.

Regards Trex.

After getting my oldest Phev's drive battery recalibrated again and the SOH went up to approx 75% and the data sent to MMAL, and been told by MMAL that they will NOT replace my drive battery.

So if you are a whinging German on youtube that moves to Australia and he buys a 2nd hand PHEV, from memory, you get your battery replaced. But if you buy 2 PHEVs brand new and was born and bred here no such luck.

Yep, sounds fair to me. :lol:

From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.

He just probably needs the BMU recalibrated for the new battery IMO.

But don't warn him. I think he is happier when he is complaining.

 

[elm70]

Hi guys,

I bought my 2015 Outlander PHEV in March 2018 with 26,000kms and it read a battery SOH of 84%. Now less than a year later it reads 76.3% with less than 35,000kms. Does this seem acceptable

Gday plugev,

I suppose the first thing I would ask is are you having trouble getting to your destination in EV on your daily commute?


...

But why ?

We all know very well that possible EV range is around 52km when SOH is 100%
When the car has 84%, in the same condition that allowed 52km EV range, this is EV range is now 43.6km
When the car has 76.3% .. this become 39.7km

The PHEV allows to discharge the battery only down to 30 or 25% SOC ... The calculation of SOC going down from 100% to 30%, is done by the PHEV based on the consumed current and the battery capacity (battery capacity = 38Ah * SOH) ... so using the same driving style, it cause an equal consumed current, and the only parameter left that determinate the EV range is the SOH

Everybody which own a PHEV since years and use OBD2 tools should know this very well ...

That means it is pointless to speak of EV range, and confuse people that they should adapt their driving style or whatsoever.

Yes ... SOH known by the PHEV , it might have an error due to the "inaccurate" BMU logic .. still it has been proven multiple times that SOH increase due to a Mitsubishi battery smoothing procedure (which should re-calibrate the BMU with the right SOH), normally it allows to gain a small percentage in the SOH which will disappear quite quickly

Furthermore .. each battery smoothing procedure ... does cause an additional "ageing" of the battery .. since it implies a deep discharge and a full charge ... both condition which are causing "wear" and reduce further the capacity of the battery.

In Australia Mitsubishi made a mistake stating in their "ads" that the PHEV battery will keep above 80% of SOH for the entire car life (which later on has been defined as 10 years) ... for a group of people in Australia, Mitsubishi has already agreed to provide a free battery replacement if the SOH get below 80% (as many time as this event happen inside the first 10 years of car life) .. this means ... everybody in Australia should be entitled to get the battery replaced for free if the SOH is below 80% ... unless the PHEV has been acquired after Mitsubishi removed the wrong ads from their web site.

So the suggestion for "plugev" is to go to the nearest qualified Mitsubishi service, and ask them to "fix" the battery .. it could be that after their classic battery smoothing the SOH might jump above 80% ... and this will save them temporary from not replacing the battery .. but if SOH is below 80% after their calibration procedure, PHEV owner in Australia has the right to get a replacement battery (new or refurbish as long as it has over 80% SOH), for free.

 

[elm70]

From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.

I guess you refer to the wrong battery smoothing done over the Andy PHEV ...

The first time Mitsubishi address his problem, instead making any battery recalibration or replacing the battery .. they just reset the BMU making the PHEV ECU to believe the SOH was 100% ...

In this condition the BMU logic quickly detect the wrong SOH and it quickly reduce the SOH to the realistic one (which take some weeks/months, for the BMU logic design)

Months after this ... Mitsubishi agreed to properly replace the battery ... I'm not sure they did this already ... neither I seen some reports from him about how is the new battery

 

[Hamaudio]

From what I can see the new battery is degrading as fast as the old one so any gain is short-lived.

I guess you refer to the wrong battery smoothing done over the Andy PHEV ...

The first time Mitsubishi address his problem, instead making any battery recalibration or replacing the battery .. they just reset the BMU making the PHEV ECU to believe the SOH was 100% ...

In this condition the BMU logic quickly detect the wrong SOH and it quickly reduce the SOH to the realistic one (which take some weeks/months, for the BMU logic design)

Months after this ... Mitsubishi agreed to properly replace the battery ... I'm not sure they did this already ... neither I seen some reports from him about how is the new battery

He got new battery. But it already down to 94.2% SOH.

 

[elm70]

He got new battery. But it already down to 94.2% SOH.

Right ... these info are only in his YouTube channel .. not much on facebook ...

So ... I see he was losing 0.1Ah a day since he go the new battery (maybe even more .. just seen a screenshot of the watchdog which show a new battery condition car, for each day)
But at least now, while the car is parked, he gains some battery capacity ... (+0.4Ah in one of his video) ... so it sounds the BMU is now possibly a bit pessimistic over his battery SOH

Anyhow ... we don't know if this was a new battery: Mitsubishi sells 44Ah pack for the outlander now .. so possibly he got a refurbish battery or an old stock ... which might explain why the BMU quickly reduce the SOH from the original 100% down to a more accurate value.

For what I did check on my PHEV, the BMU correctly adjust the SOH ... in comparison to the current used for charging and the current used when discharging ... so ... in my view the SOH reported by the BMU is relative correct ... but maybe there are way to trick the logic for cause an optimistic or pessimistic view of the SOH in the BMU

PS: His channel is getting relative popular ... 1800 subscriber and over 300k views ... I did follow it a bit in the past .. but then ... I think I did put his channel in the ignore list ... 20min of video for get 2 lines of information/status ... is not worth for me