‘Charge mode’ - is that bad for the battery?

[rafavez]

Hi All!

I’m new around here, I just bought a 2024 Outlander PHEV, and I just finished reading the manual and I had a question

The manual mentions that fast charging can reduce the battery longevity/life if used too frequently. Is the “charge mode” from the gas engine considered fast charging?

I’m mostly asking because I don’t have a charger at home, and I’ve been using the vehicle by switching between charge mode and EV(kind of like a hybrid) back and forth, and I want to make sure this won’t impact the battery life down the road

Thanks!

 

[ASeitzinger]

Hi, if you don't charge it from the grid, just let the car decide... That is unless you do a short ride, failed to switch to ev in time and want to give the icengine some extra warm up time...

 

[kpetrov]

Hi, if you don't charge it from the grid, just let the car decide... That is unless you do a short ride, failed to switch to ev in time and want to give the icengine some extra warm up time...

Why let the car decide!?
It is not that the vehicle is equipped with Artificial Intelligence to decide anything. It is just running on low battery charge, cycling few percent up, few down. If one is running on the highway it is always better to use the engine there and EV for the slow drive.

Hi All!

I’m new around here, I just bought a 2024 Outlander PHEV, and I just finished reading the manual and I had a question

The manual mentions that fast charging can reduce the battery longevity/life if used too frequently. Is the “charge mode” from the gas engine considered fast charging?

I’m mostly asking because I don’t have a charger at home, and I’ve been using the vehicle by switching between charge mode and EV(kind of like a hybrid) back and forth, and I want to make sure this won’t impact the battery life down the road

Thanks!

Don't worry if you don't charge from the grid you are already charging by the engine so you don't have an option.
Charge, Save or Normal charges the battery by the use of same engine and generator, one don't have control of charging speed in any of those modes. The most efficient way to use the engine is i parallel mode though, ie on the highway in speeds over 65km/h

 

[Jdcmitsu]

Hi All!

I’m new around here, I just bought a 2024 Outlander PHEV, and I just finished reading the manual and I had a question

The manual mentions that fast charging can reduce the battery longevity/life if used too frequently. Is the “charge mode” from the gas engine considered fast charging?

I’m mostly asking because I don’t have a charger at home, and I’ve been using the vehicle by switching between charge mode and EV(kind of like a hybrid) back and forth, and I want to make sure this won’t impact the battery life down the road

Thanks!

Hi All!

I’m new around here, I just bought a 2024 Outlander PHEV, and I just finished reading the manual and I had a question

The manual mentions that fast charging can reduce the battery longevity/life if used too frequently. Is the “charge mode” from the gas engine considered fast charging?

I’m mostly asking because I don’t have a charger at home, and I’ve been using the vehicle by switching between charge mode and EV(kind of like a hybrid) back and forth, and I want to make sure this won’t impact the battery life down the road

Thanks!

First of all congratulations on your new purchase. I have had mine since last march and love it. The short answer to your question is no. The charge mode is not fast charging. That is a separate way of charging your outlander nor do you need a level 2 charger in your home. All you really need is access to a wall plug and you are good to go so to speak. That is all that I use on a daily basis. If you do not have access to a wall socket, then going to a level two charger in the community will also work just fine. Between you and I fast charging is expensive. We have used it on our long distance travels to the cottage and it is not worth it. Enjoy your new ride.

 

[twosout]

Fast charging can only be achieved using a charge point (and is unlikely to be worth it).
Charging the battery up with the engine is a good idea, i think, because it 'exercises' the battery.
You'll get better economy if you can grab a few kWh from the grid at domestic prices.

 

[rafavez]

That’s great to hear. Thanks for all the advice and info everyone!

The car has been awesome so far, even as a “hybrid” I’ve been getting 7-8L/100km, which for the power and size of the vehicle I found really good!

 

[PJmacgee]

What others said, the "fast charging" referred to in the manual means using the chademo plug at a chargepoint (or similar) type of DC charging station. Probably pretty rare or never for most people.

Using "Charge" mode in the car should absolutely be used whenever you feel you need to, it's one of the standout features of this car, that it lets you pick!

One example is if you're on a longer drive and you notice the battery is low. You know when you get off the highway at your destination town that you'll be doing some stop and go. So you put it in Charge while on the highway, get that battery up a little, so you can motor around town in silence.

 

[BobK]

I have a J1772 220V home charger for my 2023. I don't consider this as fast charging like the Chedomo port.
I bought a programable Chargepoint one from Amazon before I took delivery of the car. I thought its programming options would be important - but the Outlander can take care of it so I could have got a cheaper one. I had an electrician install it, in part because I was concerned if I had enough capacity left in my house electricity supply. It turned out, I had to dial the charger's maximum setting back to 35A, but that is about all the car can draw anyways. I much prefer it to the 120V charger because I frequently go on several trips from home during the day and I like to get as much charge in as possible to I use less gas. It takes about 6-7 hours (more in the cold) for a full recharge from 0.
I occasionally use the Chedomo port when I'm away and it is convenient, just because I like to limit my fuel consumption. I find it very expensive because the car draws a relatively small amount of the full capacity of the charger. It takes me about 35-40 minutes to go from 0 to 80% (the recommended max) yet I am paying the same hourly rate as someone who is using the full capacity. Where I live, it costs slightly more per km than the equivalent in gas, so that, plus the worries some have about battery damage at high charging rates (which I am sceptical about given the Outlander limits the charging rate much more than the typical EV) means I am probably pretty much alone out here in choosing to do this. I have only ever seen one other Outlander using a Chedomo charger since I got my car in June.

 

[Stevepl11]

What others said, the "fast charging" referred to in the manual means using the chademo plug at a chargepoint (or similar) type of DC charging station. Probably pretty rare or never for most people.

Using "Charge" mode in the car should absolutely be used whenever you feel you need to, it's one of the standout features of this car, that it lets you pick!

One example is if you're on a longer drive and you notice the battery is low. You know when you get off the highway at your destination town that you'll be doing some stop and go. So you put it in Charge while on the highway, get that battery up a little, so you can motor around town in silence.

I use chsrge or save mode on the highway so that after I have enough EV range to complete the trip home from some point of known distance it doesn't need to restart the engine after it has cooled down a bit and avoid short bursts of engine operation. Then arrive home hopefully with zero EV range if posssible and charge for free at night.

 

[twosout]

If you're "charging for free" overnight, are you plugging into a neighbour's supply?

 

[PJmacgee]

If you're "charging for free" overnight, are you plugging into a neighbour's supply?

If you have a home solar power system then you are effectively charging for free at home

 

[AndyInOz]

It's the reason why some forum members list their solar systems in their signatures.

 

[IllustratedRat]

I work for a company that manufactures grid-scale battery storage systems. I have some knowledge of this type of cell and the ancillary charging circuitry.

Most of the newer models (and I don't have the official specs on the Outie, but this is a trend across the EV-PHEV industry) have either LiFePO4 (Lithium Ferro-Phosphate) or LiNixMnyCo1-x-yO2 (Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt Oxide, usually abbreviated NMC). NMC is preferred to LiFePO4 because they last longer and can carry a higher density of energy per mass; the main reasons LiFePO4 are still common are they use cheaper, more readily-available materials and do not spontaneously-combust.

I believe the cells in the Outie are NMC chemistry; this has been the dominant chemistry for the last two years.

Neither of these types of cell have 'charging memory', and the onboard electronics in the vehicle will prevent both over-charging and over-discharging (both of which cause irreparable damage to the pack).

These batteries work by moving the charged Lithium ions back-and-forth through the electrolyte material, as the pack charges and discharges. Eventually, the majority of the ions become immobilized at either one electrode or the other. This yields a battery that doesn't carry as much of a charge as it did when new.

It is possible to 'shock' the pack and re-mobilize the Lithium ions, but this can only be done once or twice; eventually the pack immobilizes and has to be recycled.

Finally, and most importantly, since I have a USA 2021 MY Outie PHEV [GT trim], I have not actually seen this admonition (not to use fast-charging). I must admit to being mystified as to WTF they are talking about. The electronics on-board in the car will always charge the batteries at the maximum rate the cells can drink electrons without damaging the cells, and since these batteries have no memory there's nothing to really impede their charge-discharge functionality other than age.

The only real difference w.r.t. voltage is that usually, higher voltage charging is better from the standpoint that you can use smaller-conductor cables (which weigh less) and smaller inductor hardware in the charging circuitry. Neither of which affects the battery pack's life span.

Please, anyone reading this with knowledge, feel free to enlighten me as to where I've gone wrong in my logic. I'm not Einstein nor Feynman - I'm just an engineer.

 

[PJmacgee]

Of course each car manages how much power goes in/out of the battery. It's not that the Outlander will blow up its own battery in any single charge session. And again for the OP, "Charge Mode" can/should be used whenever you want. Just that over the very long term (10+ years), DC fast charging *every day* - vs slower "gentler" (L2 speeds) - would accelerate the normal battery degradation process.

For sure there's no "memory" issues with any of the current battery chemistries (like ye olde NiCad rechargeables). It's all about rate of charge relative to battery size (capacity, kWh). 1C (e.g. 60kW for a 60kWh pack) used to be considered pretty fast (think of boiling the water in lead-acid batteries!). Many newer cars will do 3C or 4C rates effectively, using super high voltage (800V) trickery, which is amazing.

But there is a limit obviously, and if you're always pushing that limit then you're accelerating the degeneration process that imposes those limits to begin with.

 

[ASeitzinger]

Why let the car decide!?
It is not that the vehicle is equipped with Artificial Intelligence to decide anything. It is just running on low battery charge, cycling few percent up, few down. If one is running on the highway it is always better to use the engine there and EV for the slow drive.

Maybe I should have written more to my 'let the car decide' answer.

The car will not suffer damage if you just use it as an ordinary hybrid (without plugging it in or charging by charge button).

When cruising in normal mode at moderate highway speeds, at least my 2017 Outlander charges the battery a little and then runs for a few minutes on battery with the ice off - this repeating again and again.
That is probably done because load shifting yields a better ice efficiency.

Using the save mode or charge mode maintain / charge the drive battery is (im my opinion) useful if you want electric drive at the destination to not stink up the area with the ice. Or if there are other reasons to keep the drive battery charged as much as possible: need of ac power at the destination, trailer pulling, getting the ice to temperature

 

[kpetrov]

Maybe I should have written more to my 'let the car decide' answer.

The car will not suffer damage if you just use it as an ordinary hybrid (without plugging it in or charging by charge button).

When cruising in normal mode at moderate highway speeds, at least my 2017 Outlander charges the battery a little and then runs for a few minutes on battery with the ice off - this repeating again and again.
That is probably done because load shifting yields a better ice efficiency.

Using the save mode or charge mode maintain / charge the drive battery is (im my opinion) useful if you want electric drive at the destination to not stink up the area with the ice. Or if there are other reasons to keep the drive battery charged as much as possible: need of ac power at the destination, trailer pulling, getting the ice to temperature

When cruising in normal mode Outlander charges the battery a little and then runs for a few minutes on battery with the ice off - this repeating again and again is not because load shifting yields a better ice efficiency, but cause running on electric power is most efficient and cheaper (depending on prices of course)
Exactly cause the car can't decide anything it is designed to run the battery flat - use all electric power first and when finished osculating around that point.
Better yield ICE efficiency is achieved in parallel mode when the engine is running directly the front wheels and charging the battery with the excess (depending on road conditions) power.

So if driving out of battery range one should aim to use the ICE only on the highway and accumulate charge so not to run the engine in series mode (under 65km/h) down the road.

 

[ASeitzinger]

When cruising in normal mode Outlander charges the battery a little and then runs for a few minutes on battery with the ice off - this repeating again and again is not because load shifting yields a better ice efficiency, but cause running on electric power is most efficient and cheaper (depending on prices of course)
Exactly cause the car can't decide anything it is designed to run the battery flat - use all electric power first and when finished osculating around that point.

I am afraid we are talking about different operation scenarios here.

It appears to me that you describe the normal operation mode with juice left in the drive battery and the ice just kicking in to assist in phases of high power demand.

I describe the scenario of running the car long distance at around 110kph with the battery already 'empty' (at around 30% SOC).

And that is where the described load shifting is happening: the car is running with the clutch in the multimode transmission engaged (parallel hybrid mode.)

The generator adds extra load to the combustion engine, increasing its efficiency - because the efficiency sweet spot of a combustion engines is at (or near) the point of maximum torque for the given rpm. That generated energy goes into the drive battery until enough energy is stored that the car can run on electricity for a minute or so. When that happens, the clutch disengages, the ice stops and the car runs on electricity for around a minute. Then the cycle is repeated.

 

[kpetrov]

I am afraid we are talking about different operation scenarios here.

It appears to me that you describe the normal operation mode with juice left in the drive battery and the ice just kicking in to assist in phases of high power demand.

I describe the scenario of running the car long distance at around 110kph with the battery already 'empty' (at around 30% SOC).

And that is where the described load shifting is happening: the car is running with the clutch in the multimode transmission engaged (parallel hybrid mode.)

The generator adds extra load to the combustion engine, increasing its efficiency - because the efficiency sweet spot of a combustion engines is at (or near) the point of maximum torque for the given rpm. That generated energy goes into the drive battery until enough energy is stored that the car can run on electricity for a minute or so. When that happens, the clutch disengages, the ice stops and the car runs on electricity for around a minute. Then the cycle is repeated.

Yea I completely agree with you regarding engine efficiency sweet spot and vehicle being in parallel mode dumping excess energy in to the battery being most efficient.
I didn't meant to describe the normal operation mode with juice left in the drive battery and the ice just kicking in to assist in phases of high power demand though.
What I meant is that in Normal no matter the engine is in series mode in city driving or what you described during parallel mode on the highway the short cycle of ICE on-off is due to vehicle being programmed to use electric propulsion with priority and not accumulate unnecessary charge produced by fuel not because the short cycle is more efficient. The vehicle don't "know" how far is one from plugin charge point so it has to keep the battery flat for best efficiency. If one knows however that there is long slow driving ahead should keep it in Charge until sufficient power is accumulated in the battery to complete it without using the engine in series mode.
In other words longer cycle of ICE being on-off in the parallel mode you described won't hurt the efficiency.
There were a study showing battery charging efficiency being constant from low to 60%-70% battery levels.

 

[Woon Chung]

It's the reason why some forum members list their solar systems in their signatures.

What could be the system requirements if I plan to charge every other day from solar system?

 

[AndyInOz]

What could be the system requirements if I plan to charge every other day from solar system?

The size of a solar system depends on the slope, size and direction of your roof and your expected power requirements, which depend on the size of your family and how you currently use appliances, lighting, etc.

Consult a solar installer, tell them you want to be able to charge your car every two days, and budget on using about 10 kWh per charge (unless you're always going to charge from 'empty', in which case bump that up to about 13 kWh.)

My daily average usage went from 1.5 kWh (single person in a stand-alone home) to approximately 5.5 kWh after I bought the PHEV. At the time, I was driving the car to work every day and recharging approximately 2.5 times per week.

A 5.5 kW system (or more) seems pretty standard these days. (Three times larger than mine).

My current system is only 1.5 kW. (i.e. generates 1500W at solar noon one day per year.)

By the way. The reason why my home was only consuming 1.5 kWh per day, is down to retro-fitting thermal insulation in the roof, double glazing, solar/gas hot water heating and window shading/insulation (External roller shutters).

Rely on your current power bills for your starting point and work from there.