Why charge the battery while driving?

[MrMuscles]

Hello, I was on a long journey recently and arrived at a hotel where it was not possible to charge the battery.

So the next day I set off on petrol. It got me wondering, what would be the advantage of charging the battery while driving? does it use additional petrol, and therefore is there any point if once I arrive home I can put it on charge? Under which circumstances does it make sense to do this?

Likewise when does it make sense to use "save" for the battery - on arriving at a location with slower roads, assuming the battery will get used up, does it make any difference to save it as opposed to using it all up en route?

For a bonus point - how exactly does the ecomode help, the manual is a little ambiguous.

Thank you!

 

[elm70]

You have very good questions

But I guess there are not good answers for those

 

[ps44]

I'll have a go as a relative newbie, I'm sure the experts will be along shortly

I think it's only worth explicitly forcing a charge, or driving in 'save' mode, when you're going into an emissions free area and need battery power, or for some other reason want to make sure you can drive pure EV (which as we know you can't enforce anyway !) or leave some charge in the battery. Otherwise just let the car do its thing. I normally arrive home on empty and charge from there. My driving pattern hasn't necessitated any remote charging yet other than taking the 13Amp plugin charger with me and using someone else's domestic supply.

As a slight side bar I did force a partial charge while driving recently prior to parking at an airport for 3 weeks. Seemed sensible to leave the battery partially charged - anyone care to comment ? Interested as next trip is 7 weeks and wonder what charge state I should leave it in....

Ecomode seems to limit AC power consumption and reduce throttle sensitivity, but there are many thread on this !

 

[geoffshep69]

Lots of posts on this forum on those very subjects, so have a search around and you should find lots of detailed responses. But for what its worth, my take on it is:

- Charge should only be used if you are going to be able to use EV mode efficiently at your journeys end. So if you are driving on the motorway, but will be doing a significant amount of town/city driving at the end, or entering an EV zone, then you might want to use charge to give you battery range for that EV driving at the end.
- Using charge does result in higher fuel usage. the exact amount depends on speed / driving pattern. etc. but in general it is not an efficient mode of charging the battery, and usually the extra petrol you consume outweighs the extra EV range you will buy yourself.
- Using charge is far less efficient than charging from an electricity point so never use charge if you are driving home. Ideally you want to arrive home with empty battery, and then charge from mains.

- Main use of save is to alter the default usage pattern of electric versus petrol. Generally the battery is always used first, and once depleted you'll be running on petrol. If your journey starts off with 25 miles on the motorway, followed by 20 miles in the city, then you'll be doing the motorway miles on EV, and the city miles on petrol. This is the opposite of what you want from an efficiency point. Pressing save will retain your existing level of battery and force the car to run on petrol, so if you press save at the start of your journey you can then do the motorway on petrol, and retain your battery for the city, which is a far more efficient and clean method.
- Caveat to this is that I understand that pressing save with a near to full capacity battery is not entirely efficient, but others are far better placed than me to comment on that.

I'm sure you will get many more detailed replies which expand on this further, but thats my understanding of the basics.

 

[MrMuscles]

Thanks all for your replies.

Geoff, you said using the battery is far more efficient. Please can you explain this? For example are you talking about cost per mile?

By the way I did try to search but the search rejected me! I tried "range" and "ev range" but it complained so I gave up and posted instead. If there is an easier way than having to read through all pages I'd really appreciate knowing

 

[greendwarf]

Thanks all for your replies.

Geoff, you said using the battery is far more efficient. Please can you explain this? For example are you talking about cost per mile?

By the way I did try to search but the search rejected me! I tried "range" and "ev range" but it complained so I gave up and posted instead. If there is an easier way than having to read through all pages I'd really appreciate knowing

The above posts cover this well (apart from elm70's :roll: ) The consensus is that at slower road speed and stop/start driving (urban) EV mode is a more efficient use of energy (and domestic electricity is cheaper than petrol), whereas high speed cruising (motorway) maximises the efficiency of the petrol engine. You can't cheat physics so if you drive and charge, you will use more energy/petrol and so spend more money.

However, it also depends on your concern for the environment. When I was in Ireland last summer, I did use charge in the countryside so I would have EV available at each town/village so as to not pump out pollution in built up areas. Similarly I can't quite get to Heathrow and back on battery alone, so I use Charge on the high speed M4 section to get enough back to be able to get home on EV once in the city. :mrgreen:

 

[ChrisMiller]

The other use of 'Charge' is if you're towing and approaching a very long uphill stretch, where the battery may be needed to boost the engine power in order to maintain speed. This will prevent the battery charge from dropping too low, causing the car to enter 'tortoise' mode and limit your speed. I'm not sure this is relevant in the UK, unless you're planning to tow a caravan up Ben Nevis

 

[Claymore]

The above posts cover this well (apart from elm70's :roll: ) The consensus is that ...................

Personally, I think that elm70's answer was as useful as any of the rest, including mine...below.

I did a 47 mile run from Leeds to Chesterfield yesterday starting with zero battery (the bums in my dealership ( Luscombe - Leeds) parked the car beside the charger after the service but didn't plug it in!).

Left it to do its own thing till I cleared town then with the ice already running hit 'charge' when I got on the motorway and after 4 miles EV range indicated changed to 'Save' for the last part of the journey through Chesterfield to home.

Unfortunately (I was also low on motion lotion) the range indicator suddenly (after blasting 'refuel' at me from the central console for a while) changed from 4 miles EV range and total 30 miles range to zero miles total range (but still 4 miles EV range! Go figure!) in the space of 30 seconds (I had hoped to get home to avail myself of the 10p per litre off offer at Morrisons if £50 spent in the shop). So had to divert and fill up.

It took 47+ litres to top it off.

Despite all this faffing around the MMCS (untrustworthy swine) said I'd achieved 44 miles per gallon for the trip, which I think is actually quite good.

The fact is if the drive battery is indicating 'discharged' charging is at its most efficient for probably the first 5 miles of charge or so and especially useful if you are going to finish up in a congested area where you don't want to be sitting around in traffic with the ice idling away.

If I'm on the open road and the battery says it's depleted I always hit 'charge' to get back to 5 /6 miles EV range but if a long descent invites me I cancel that and the engine stops ( I don't carry out the analysis that others on here do but casual observation indicates to me that idling down a hill with the car in 'charge' achieves less than idling down the same hill with the engine off) then re-engaging 'charge' or 'save' , if necessary when back on the level.

If it doesn't immediately stop just temporarily select B1 or beyond...et voila...!

Looking at the MMCS it's obvious that in anything beyond a gentle uphill gradient the ICE uses all of its output to propel the car and nothing much is left for charging.

Certainly doesn't leave much room for boredom but, even on a simple level, is probably as distracting and dangerous as using a mobile phone.

But MMCS showing 4 miles EV range and zero mile total range - PATHETIC!

JimB

 

[anko]

By the way I did try to search but the search rejected me! I tried "range" and "ev range" but it complained so I gave up and posted instead. If there is an easier way than having to read through all pages I'd really appreciate knowing

Perhaps you can imagine that about 30% of the posts have the word "range" in it and about half of the posts have the word "ev" in it (ok, slightly exaggerated), so searching for this terms would be highly inefficient and thus these terms are ignored.

Maybe there is a good reason why discussions on the pros and cons of charge mode are not easily found. But if you insist, try for example here: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1882 (I searched for 'sweetspot'). After reading through 6 pages of posts, ask yourself whether we should have this discussion once more

 

[anko]

But MMCS showing 4 miles EV range and zero mile total range - PATHETIC!

I think you are totally misinterpreting the '---' you see on the dash. Or does your car really show '0' as total range? I know mine doesn't.

 

[greendwarf]

But MMCS showing 4 miles EV range and zero mile total range - PATHETIC!

I think you are totally misinterpreting the '---' you see on the dash. Or does your car really show '0' as total range? I know mine doesn't.

I had a similar quirk in Ireland in the summer but can't find the details of my post on it now. However, how should we interpret "---"?

 

[elm70]

Likewise when does it make sense to use "save" for the battery - on arriving at a location with slower roads, assuming the battery will get used up, does it make any difference to save it as opposed to using it all up en route?

For a bonus point - how exactly does the ecomode help, the manual is a little ambiguous.

Except when towing, and be aware of an uphill road is coming
Except of knowing to enter into a EV mode restricted area

Best is always let the car go automatically and don't touch save and charge

The aim is always to arrive at destination with empty battery (if the trip is longer the 35km) ... the most economical way to charge the battery is from the 220v power line.

About ECO mode ... yes it does almost nothing .. I don't feel the difference in throttle response .... and AC saving is "limited", and avoiding of ICE start for warm up is almost null ... mainly I like the green light on the dash .. this is why I always click it in my car ... also .. for sure it does not "harm"

PS: Even on motor-way, running at 120kmh/130kmh ... I don't see the value to click on SAVE .. definitely not CHARGE (charge does cause to charge battery relative fast, which is not healthy for battery longevity) ... even having a city drive after motorway .. the car will take care by itself to make the proper ICE run / battery run cycle automatically .. no difference in efficiency .. actually possibly more efficient then press save or charge .. with the advantage that it is not needed to plan ahead how to reach destination with almost empty battery ... each kwh left in the batter , due to save or charge .. is a waste of fuel

PPS: Possibly on a long trip on motor-way at constant speed .. clicking on save and having the car running in pure ICE mode ... you avoid "ageing" the battery due to the multiple partial charge cycle that would have happen otherwise .. but it is not going to be more fuel efficient using SAVE (unless you drive at the speed associated to the ICE RPM with highest efficiency)

PPPS: Charge button,for me, it the overtake button .. I press this when I know I may want all the 120kw power for make an overtake in the next "seconds"

 

[ChrisMiller]

About ECO mode ... yes it does almost nothing .. I don't feel the difference in throttle response

Like you, I prefer to have Eco mode on, but sometimes I forget (it would be nice to have a 'memory function' for default settings). In this case, if I press Eco while accelerating there's an instant reduction in forward drive.

Several people have mentioned the use of Charge when approaching an EV only zone (a zero-emission zone). Are there any such? I don't know of any in the UK. In a true ZEZ, hybrid vehicles are banned, and (as we know) you can't (currently) force the PHEV into electric-only mode.

 

[anko]

But MMCS showing 4 miles EV range and zero mile total range - PATHETIC!

I think you are totally misinterpreting the '---' you see on the dash. Or does your car really show '0' as total range? I know mine doesn't.

I had a similar quirk in Ireland in the summer but can't find the details of my post on it now. However, how should we interpret "---"?

As most of us have experienced, '---' certainly does not mean 0. To me, it is the car telling me: "You are close to getting stranded, so get fuel ASAP. And no, I am no longer telling you how far I think you can go, as you will try to max it out, and when things don't work out and you do get stranded, you will blame me for it.".

As maxing out EV range will not get you stranded (as you cannot completely empty your fuel tank as long as you still have some EV range left), it makes perfectly good sense to see an EV range of 1 mile (or even 1 km, as I see it). And I consider this information very helpful in my daily attempt to burn no fuel or as little fuel as possible on my daily commute.

 

[elm70]

About ECO mode ... yes it does almost nothing .. I don't feel the difference in throttle response

Like you, I prefer to have Eco mode on, but sometimes I forget (it would be nice to have a 'memory function' for default settings). In this case, if I press Eco while accelerating there's an instant reduction in forward drive.

Several people have mentioned the use of Charge when approaching an EV only zone (a zero-emission zone). Are there any such? I don't know of any in the UK. In a true ZEZ, hybrid vehicles are banned, and (as we know) you can't (currently) force the PHEV into electric-only mode.

Yes ... possibly EV zone don't exist in Europe ... I'm not aware of any in Poland actually in Poland there is no reduced taxes or any advantage at all on using EV or Hybrid cars (only the electricity , the kwh from home usage is possibly the cheapest in europe .. but as well fuel from polish tank stations is possibly the cheapest in EU too)

In UK .. I find only this: http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/uk%E2%80%99s-first-ev-only-road-to-be-built-next-year/ar-BBwYRxX
In US is looking like that EV and Hybrid car can use HOV lines.

So ... using save before enter in a EV only zone ... is more "a future option" ... that does not apply now

So ... save and charge ... make sense only for people that need to tow and have a up-hill street ahead ... so quite a specific and rare case ... or maybe before entering "Nürburgring" for be sure that have full power for the entire lap :mrgreen:

At the end .. the really useful button is missing : the EV mode .. while we have unclear "ECO", and relative useless Charge and Save :?

 

[Kesto]

My experience is as above . Charge by ICE works best when
Battery is quite low may be 1-2 miles left. Also charging at 70mph and above takes longer . Charging at 50mph is best. I think as everyone , charge if you are going to end up in city driving. The total mpg will sort off level off in the end. I could only charger max 24 miles when I drove Colchester to leeds. I think you cant charge more than this. Going uphill charge will help. Also as per my calculation it costs around £ 3.45 about 3 litres extra for a full 24 miles. Better than ecoticity. Charging at 50-55mph will show 5 green leaves because you are driving as well as charging and using all output.
Choice is yours

 

[elm70]

As most of us have experienced, '---' certainly does not mean 0. To me, it is the car telling me: "You are close to getting stranded, so get fuel ASAP. And no, I am no longer telling you how far I think you can go, as you will try to max it out, and when things don't work out and you do get stranded, you will blame me for it.".

As maxing out EV range will not get you stranded (as you cannot completely empty your fuel tank as long as you still have some EV range left), it makes perfectly good sense to see an EV range of 1 mile (or even 1 km, as I see it). And I consider this information very helpful in my daily attempt to burn no fuel or as little fuel as possible on my daily commute.

:?:

My PHEV does show as low as 1km EV range ... never had any issue sudden change of value on MMCS
But .. at some speed (below 130km/h which is normally EV possible ) the ICE kick in even if EV range is above 2 or 3km ... for some "strange" algorithm implemented in the car

Still ... I never experience so far a combined range of only 1km :ugeek:

I know that my BMWs had still some range left even when range was shown going down to 0 .. but I'm not sure I want to repeat this in the Outlander PHEV

 

[anko]

At the end .. the really useful button is missing : the EV mode .. while we have unclear "ECO", and relative useless Charge and Save :?

EV Mode button is a different topic. As a matter of fact, it is 8 or 9 other different topics already On the other hand, Charge and Save may be useless to you, but to me they are extremely useful, as they allow me to hang on to battery charge as long a s possible while towing. Very, very important!

 

[geoffshep69]

Re the range indicator, both of my previous car have done exactly the same, ie they show a predicted range until it gets down to about 25-30 miles and then it doesn’t show anything. That doesn’t mean your tank is empty and you are going to immediately grind to a halt, but it pretty much tells that you need to refuel immediately as you may only have 10 or 20 miles worth of range left.

In terms of the Save / Charge debate, I think there are two schools of thought on here:

1. Using Save / Charge, and playing around with the flappy paddles for regenerative braking, can give you a (small) increase in mpg and a (small) reduction in emmissions.
2. Forget the buttons, let the car do its own thing and you’ll be fine.

Personally I’m in camp 1 but that’s mainly because I enjoy messing about with stuff, I’m interested in technology, and I like to challenge myself to see how good I can get it. I don’t do it because I think it makes a huge difference to the economy level I achieve, but I do think that as a by product of playing around I do get a smallish improvement.

My wife on the other hand is in camp 2. She knows nothing about the technology, cares even less, so just gets in the car and drives it, and she gets on just fine.

To the original poster of the thread, if you are a new owner my advice would be to play around a bit, try different modes and see what works for you. If you don’t achieve any improvement, or cant be bothered with it all, then that’s fine just drive the car and let it sort itself out, you wont go far wrong.

I think Mitsubishi have done a pretty neat job of designing a car that is virtually ‘idiot proof’ and will operate as a very efficient PHEV even if the driver does nothing. The caveat to that of course is that it will only work for you if your pattern of driving is suited to a PHEV in the first place (i.e. if you do 100k miles a year on the motorway then a PHEV is the wrong car for you no matter what you choose to do)

 

[anko]

As most of us have experienced, '---' certainly does not mean 0. To me, it is the car telling me: "You are close to getting stranded, so get fuel ASAP. And no, I am no longer telling you how far I think you can go, as you will try to max it out, and when things don't work out and you do get stranded, you will blame me for it.".

As maxing out EV range will not get you stranded (as you cannot completely empty your fuel tank as long as you still have some EV range left), it makes perfectly good sense to see an EV range of 1 mile (or even 1 km, as I see it). And I consider this information very helpful in my daily attempt to burn no fuel or as little fuel as possible on my daily commute.

:?:

My PHEV does show as low as 1km EV range ... never had any issue sudden change of value on MMCS

Of course it does. And of course you haven't. The remark of Claymore on the '---' and my response to that remark was related to combined range, not EV range.

Still ... I never experience so far a combined range of only 1km :ugeek:

Of course you haven't. Again, the question was the 'relevance' of a combined range of '---' (which means less than 50 km or ... miles) in combination wit han EV range of (e.g.) just 4 miles. :ugeek:

I know that my BMWs had still some range left even when range was shown going down to 0 .. but I'm not sure I want to repeat this in the Outlander PHEV

So, the PHEV out performs the BMW in this case: where the BMW show 0 , the PHEV shows '---'. The first is wrong. The second can be explained, as I did this morning