TPMS

[Bilbo59]

Quite a debate on TPMS under winter tyres so have decided to start a new thread as suggested by gwatpe. I want to buy a set of non-Mitsubishi alloys and winter tyres soon and am trying to ascertain whether I need to fit TPMS sensors in the new wheels and if so, how to achieve this.

I have a GX4h registered in Oct 2014. The manual refers to TPMS on page 7-64. It reads:

Tyre Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)
The tyre pressure monitoring system (TPMS) uses tyre inflation pressure sensors (A) on the wheels to monitor the tyre inflation pressure. The system only indicates when a tyre is significantly under-inflated.

The base tyre pressure can be set at desired value by the driver with the reset function execution. (The low pressure warning threshold is set based on the reset.)

The tyre inflation pressure sensor IDs for two sets of tyres can be registered by a MITSUBISHI MOTORS Authorized Service Point, and the valid ID set can be switched by the multi-information display switch. (It's beneficial in case of seasonal tyre change between summer tyre and winter tyre.)

I tried changing the tyre ID setting from set 1 to set 2 to simulate no sensors which resulted in the TPMS fault warning light staying on. This suggests that new wheels with no sensors may cause a similar fault.

I think I may have to call Mitsubishi or the alloy wheel/tyre supplier to find out:

1: If the TPMS system can be switched off for use with wheels with no sensors.
(The law may prohibit this from Jan 2015! http://www.techeurope.co.uk/tech/news/view/35/European-legislation-on-TPMS-imminent)

2. If I have TPMS sensors fitted to the new wheels - will Mitsubishi calibrate them if fitted by third party?
(http://www.techtpms.com/subpages/tpms_sensors_and_service_kits.php?vehicle=456
http://www.vdo.com/generator/www/co...14_02_applications_tpms_en.pdf?redirect=false

Does anyone have any experience of this so far?

 

[greendwarf]

Quite a debate on TPMS under winter tyres so have decided to start a new thread as suggested by gwatpe. I want to buy a set of non-Mitsubishi alloys and winter tyres soon and am trying to ascertain whether I need to fit TPMS sensors in the new wheels and if so, how to achieve this.

I have a GX4h registered in Oct 2014. The manual refers to TPMS on page 7-64. It reads:

Tyre Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)
The tyre pressure monitoring system (TPMS) uses tyre inflation pressure sensors (A) on the wheels to monitor the tyre inflation pressure. The system only indicates when a tyre is significantly under-inflated.

The base tyre pressure can be set at desired value by the driver with the reset function execution. (The low pressure warning threshold is set based on the reset.)

The tyre inflation pressure sensor IDs for two sets of tyres can be registered by a MITSUBISHI MOTORS Authorized Service Point, and the valid ID set can be switched by the multi-information display switch. (It's beneficial in case of seasonal tyre change between summer tyre and winter tyre.)

I tried changing the tyre ID setting from set 1 to set 2 to simulate no sensors which resulted in the TPMS fault warning light staying on. This suggests that new wheels with no sensors may cause a similar fault.

I think I may have to call Mitsubishi or the alloy wheel/tyre supplier to find out:

1: If the TPMS system can be switched off for use with wheels with no sensors.
(The law may prohibit this from Jan 2015! http://www.techeurope.co.uk/tech/news/view/35/European-legislation-on-TPMS-imminent)

2. If I have TPMS sensors fitted to the new wheels - will Mitsubishi calibrate them if fitted by third party?
(http://www.techtpms.com/subpages/tpms_sensors_and_service_kits.php?vehicle=456
http://www.vdo.com/generator/www/co...14_02_applications_tpms_en.pdf?redirect=false

Does anyone have any experience of this so far?

I have the same problem but although I don't know the answer but reading up on this on-line I think the answer to 1. is no but you could drive around with the warning light on as far as 2. is concerned I don't see why not but there is another option https://www.tpmswarehouse.co.uk/replicate-your-sensor-and-other-tpms-services/

 

[davec]

I tried changing the tyre ID setting from set 1 to set 2 to simulate no sensors which resulted in the TPMS fault warning light staying on. This suggests that new wheels with no sensors may cause a similar fault.

Well done for starting a new thread on TPMS and great move to try changing the tyre ID set - can I ask whether you tried to drive the car on the alternative setting? I've read that some indirect TPMS will recalibrate themselves after a short distance - as I understand it, they are relying on the ABS system to monitor relative wheel speed so it would make sense that the car needs to be driven for the 'new set' to get recognised.

As I mentioned in the Winter Tyre thread, I'm really not yet convinced that the wheels have physical sensors in them, but I'm happy to be proved wrong - it would just be nice to know one way or the other!

 

[gwatpe]

Thanks Bilbo59 for starting this thread.

I have had a close look with a torch and there is an icon of the cross section of a tyre and another 120kph just under it that don't light up on power up. So the AUS shipped car dash has an indicator for TPMS it seems, even if there is no programming or mention in a manual.

Would be much simpler if all cars purchased as top of the range were fully optioned to avoid any confusion.

 

[Lyra252]

Hi

I have checked and mine is the same. I think there are 2 means of checking tyre presure.

The most common is for sensors in each wheel to send a radio signal with each independant pressure, this is then displayed, usually on startup.

A more modern method is for an ABS sensor to notify the computer if a wheel is loosing pressure, thus turning at a different rate to its' colleagues.

I believe that recently registered PHEVs have the former system..

Not sure if the ABS system is also active on older models as the tyre with the ! symbol is on the dash, but not iluminated. maybe it would come on if a tyre lost pressure?

I would guess not, or it would probably come on during the test cycle along with the ABS lights.

Any thoughts??

Just found this!

Pressure from the EU

The new EU regulation is here, and it helps improve safety and fuel efficiency while creating new service opportunities. Car manufacturers must already equip all new models in vehicle category M1 with tire pressure monitoring systems since 2012. And starting on November 1, 2014, the systems will be mandatory for all newly registered vehicles in Europe.

Clear-cut rules

EU regulation ECE R 661 clearly specifies what safety information the system must display:

- It must report a sudden loss of pressure of 20% ore more within a period of ten minutes.

- It must warn the driver if there is a gradual loss of pressure within 60 minutes.

- It must function reliably at speeds of 40 km/h and more, up to the top design speed of the vehicle.

Provided they meet the specification, automakers are free to decide what kind of system to use in their vehicles. They have a choice between two very different technologies.

Indirect systems

These systems evaluate signals from a vehicle’s anti-lock brake (ABS) wheel speed sensors. A software component compares the speeds of the wheels. The speed of a wheel will increase if the tire has lower pressure due to the reduced rotational circumference. If the system detects a difference in wheel speeds and this is not attributable to the driving situation, a warning lamp on the instrument cluster will illuminate.

Direct systems

In a direct system each wheel/tire is equipped with a sensor that directly measures the tire pressure, anddepending on the vehicle, may also measure temperature. This information is transmitted wirelessly to a control unit which analyses it and displays a warning on the instrument cluster if it detects low pressure.

The main advantages at a glance:

- Direct systems are faster and provide more precise data.

- Direct systems have the potential tocan display the pressure and temperature of each tire individually, even when the vehicle is stationary.

- Direct systems do not have to be recalibrated if the tire pressure changes owing to an increase in load or a tire change(however direct systems do require a sensor/vehicle relearn when moving or replacing sensors –this may be automatic depending on the vehicle).

Full details.

http://www.vdo.com/generator/www/com/en/vdo/main/products_solutions/cars/tpms/rdks_background_en.html

 

[Bilbo59]

Quick update on progress.

I have found a wheel/tyre combination (18" Tekno RX7 Silver Alloys (8.0J ET40) & Vredestein Tyres ) which gives approx 14mm less gap on the inside of the wheel and adds approx 12mm to the outside. (http://www.1010tires.com/Tools/Wheel-Offset-Calculator I measured the existing gaps and this should not cause any issues.

I chose the wheels for the design and also for the offset of 40. There are other options with 18" MSW 19 (WINTER) apparently being a popular choice for winter wheels/tyres according to the wheel supplier.

The wheel/tyre supplier is happy to fit after market TPMS sensors at £160 or fit the Mitsubishi ones I provide. I have contacted Celtic Mitsubishi (01792 659555 - Mark or Ceri) whom I have used regularly for parts due to excellent service, good advice and great prices. They are ordering in a set of sensors and want to check that they are exactly what I need before charging me. (I have no connection whatsoever to Celtic Mitsubishi but do recognise good service when I receive it.)

All going well I will have the sensors sent to the alloy wheel/tyre provider who will put everything together and have them delivered.

I then have to go to my local Mitsubishi garage here in the North East and have the sensors calibrated to the car. There is a facility in the car to change from one set of sensors to another but any new sensors first have to be associated with the car and I have been informed that Mitsubishi has to do this.

I am having some remedial work done to the tow bar electrics and having mud flaps fitted so I will have them fit the new wheels and calibrate the sensors at the same time.

I will keep you posted as to progress.

 

[Bilbo59]

I tried changing the tyre ID setting from set 1 to set 2 to simulate no sensors which resulted in the TPMS fault warning light staying on. This suggests that new wheels with no sensors may cause a similar fault.

Well done for starting a new thread on TPMS and great move to try changing the tyre ID set - can I ask whether you tried to drive the car on the alternative setting? I've read that some indirect TPMS will recalibrate themselves after a short distance - as I understand it, they are relying on the ABS system to monitor relative wheel speed so it would make sense that the car needs to be driven for the 'new set' to get recognised.

As I mentioned in the Winter Tyre thread, I'm really not yet convinced that the wheels have physical sensors in them, but I'm happy to be proved wrong - it would just be nice to know one way or the other!

The Mitsubishi parts dept told me that they have physical sensors and I have ordered some as per my previous post.

I did drive the car with the alternative setting but the fault light stayed on. In fact I had a hard time getting rid of it and afterwards was unable to change the id set again. I regretted fiddling around with it as I got the fault light again at 5.30am the next morning but managed to reset it in a service station on my journey. It was 3degC so I suspect that was the issue. No probs since then.

 

[davec]

I tried changing the tyre ID setting from set 1 to set 2 to simulate no sensors which resulted in the TPMS fault warning light staying on. This suggests that new wheels with no sensors may cause a similar fault.

Well done for starting a new thread on TPMS and great move to try changing the tyre ID set - can I ask whether you tried to drive the car on the alternative setting? I've read that some indirect TPMS will recalibrate themselves after a short distance - as I understand it, they are relying on the ABS system to monitor relative wheel speed so it would make sense that the car needs to be driven for the 'new set' to get recognised.

As I mentioned in the Winter Tyre thread, I'm really not yet convinced that the wheels have physical sensors in them, but I'm happy to be proved wrong - it would just be nice to know one way or the other!

The Mitsubishi parts dept told me that they have physical sensors and I have ordered some as per my previous post.

I did drive the car with the alternative setting but the fault light stayed on. In fact I had a hard time getting rid of it and afterwards was unable to change the id set again. I regretted fiddling around with it as I got the fault light again at 5.30am the next morning but managed to reset it in a service station on my journey. It was 3degC so I suspect that was the issue. No probs since then.

Great progress Bilbo - really useful information. How much are a set of the Mitsubishi sensors? I like the Tekno RX7 wheels too, but am concerned about clearance to the strut if using snow-chains. I've found a few 7.5J wheels with 35 or 38 offsets which only reduce internal clearance by 5-8mm. There are very very few 7J wheels (18" diameter) and it's interesting to note that none of the tyre/wheel websites recommend fitting 225 wide tyres to 7J wheels even though that is the Outlander standard!

I spoke to a local tyre specialist today about supplying non-oem sensors and cloning the existing sensors in the hope that that would save taking the car to Mitsubishi to do any reprogramming. Waiting to hear.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Bilbo59]

I think the Mitsubishi sensors are around £100 plus vat. The wheel company wanted £160 for after-market ones. I am vat registered which takes a fair chunk off the purchase price of items like this. No snow chains required in Northumberland so the offset wasn't quite so critical. I did look at a lot of wheels and a large percentage had too high an ET figure or had a fancy centre piece that looked as though it would not accommodate the locking wheel nuts fitted to my car. The wheels are likely to be on the car for about six months each year so need to be smart - they should also be easy to sell later if I change the car.

I should find out today about the sensors and will post when I do.

 

[Bilbo59]

Wheels and tyres now ordered. Package is:

TPMS Sensors
Cost £121.87 from Celtic Mitsubishi - 01792 659555 - Mark or Ceri

Wheels & Tyres
Cost £1109.00
Tekno RX7 Silver 18" 8J ET40
Vredestein Wintrac 4 Xtreme - 225/55/18 98V
Wheelbase (G.B.) Limited - 0845 500 4001 - Damian
http://www.wheelbasealloys.com/

TPMS sensors being sent to Wheelbase who will put it all together and I should get them next week. Quick visit to my local Mitsubishi garage to have them calibrated and hopefully happy winter motoring!

 

[Bilbo59]

Wheels arrived today as promised and I decided to fit them using the tools supplied with the car as I was keen to have them on and also to practice changing a wheel in a dry light space. No fun learning where the jacking points are on a wet night!!

It was a lot easier than I thought and I was glad I did it as I discovered that the OEM wheel nuts were no good with the new wheels and the new wheel nuts supplied were a smaller size than the OEM ones so the supplied wheel brace did not work. Luckily I had a socket set with a wheel nut socket which fitted the new nuts and was the right size for the wheel brace. This will now reside in the car.

When I finished fitting the wheels it was time for a test drive on damp roads to check out the vredesteins. Seemed slightly noisier but felt good and it could be the road surface. I noticed that there was no TPMS alarm and wasn't sure whether this was because the sensors hadn't been linked to the car or some other reason. I drove a few miles to my local garage and still no TPMS alarm. I then checked the tyre pressures which were all 42psi and reduced them to 35psi all round.

On start up I got the "TPMS sensor needs checking" alarm so I stopped and tried re-setting the TPMS sensor. The light flashed as it is supposed to but after 15 mins of driving around it was still flashing. Tried switching off and back on again but no joy. The local Mitsubishi garage had offered to link the sensors to the car while I waited if I took it in first thing any morning so it looks as though I will have to do it after all.

On the plus side, the wheels look good and I fitted the mud flaps at the weekend so it is pretty much ready for the winter months in the north of England.

I'll post some pics tomorrow and give an update when I have the sensors linked to the car.

 

[BeeJay]

Thanks for your post - I am getting the Vreds fitted to my existing rims on Sat, and will store the Toyos in my garage until the spring.

I don't envisage any TPMS problems as I am using the same rims, however when I fitted the Vreds to my Range Rover I always used to run them 2 or 4 PSI over that recommended for normal tyres, I saw this recommended somewhere once (can't remember where)...

I love how quiet my car is now, are they really that noticeably louder? Just interested, as I will fit them anyway, the Vreds are an amazing tyre.

 

[Bilbo59]

Thanks for the info on the tyres, I'll check out the recommended pressures and see if they are different from the normal pressures.

As for the noise. When I left the garage, having adjusted the pressures, I switched everything off that makes a noise, opened the window and listened to the car as it moved. Virtually silent apart from the normal motor whine. Back on the road the tyre noise wasn't really much different to the Toyo's - it is so subjective it may well have been the initial road surface I was on, really hard to tell.

 

[BeeJay]

That's excellent - good to hear (no pun intended!)

There are some thoughts/comments on the pressures (granted on a Disco) here - http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic31039-15.html?highlight=wintrac

I used to add 4psi to manufacturer's recommendations on my Range Rover, so will probably run them on the Outlander at 38 when I get them fitted.

 

[Bilbo59]

I have emailed the wheel/tyre supplier for more info but the general consensus seems to lead towards the pressure being at the maximum recommended by the manufacturer.

I will put them all up to 38psi this morning anyway and take it from there as I get more information. The TPMS sensor linking to the car will have to wait until tomorrow or Friday and the pics will have to wait until it stops raining!!

 

[Bilbo59]

Just spoken to the wheel/tyre supplier and they stated that they always run Vredesteins at the pressures recommended in the car handbook. Apparently they have no guidance from Vredestein to the contrary.

Also got confirmation from the insurance company (Allianz) that they are happy with the change of wheels/tyres and there is no additional premium.

 

[maby]

Just spoken to the wheel/tyre supplier and they stated that they always run Vredesteins at the pressures recommended in the car handbook. Apparently they have no guidance from Vredestein to the contrary.

Also got confirmation from the insurance company (Allianz) that they are happy with the change of wheels/tyres and there is no additional premium.

It really would be rather worrying if there were an additional premium since these things are claimed to make driving so much safer!

 

[Bilbo59]

I agree but the addition of new alloy wheels can be classed as a change to the car. In this case it was no problem at all. I sent the invoice for information and have received confirmation that the change has been noted and approved. Pretty straightforward.

 

[jaapv]

It depends on the use. If you are doing highspeed motorway driving with a heavy load overinflation of 2 PSI is a good idea and in deep snow overinflation by 4 PSI really helps. On packed snow or ice underinflation by 2-4 PSI is a good idea.

 

[Bilbo59]

Decided to go for 36psi front and 38psi rear and will see how that goes for a while. No change to the TPMS sensor light flashing - However I think that the reason it did not flash initially when I changed the wheels is that they probably do not transmit unless there is a change in pressure. By dropping the pressures from delivery to recommended they may have started transmitting and the car did not recognise them. Mitsubishi will hopefully introduce them to each other tomorrow.

Took a pic whilst waiting for my other half to emerge from the airport.