This car needs a "Keep ICE Warm" mode

[STS134]

After driving the Outlander PHEV for the past 4-5 months, I think it needs a mode in which it keeps the ICE warm, charging the battery or propelling the car opportunistically if it has to run the ICE anyway to keep it warm, but not actually running the ICE for these purposes. You know, the way pretty much every non plug-in hybrid electric vehicle operates, and the way the PHEV probably operates when the battery is depleted. But we should have a way to force it to do this when the battery is NOT depleted.

"Normal" mode should not just keep consuming battery all the way up to 60 kW of power demand, on the freeway up to 78 mph, until the batteries are drained. It should do something like only use battery power up to a max of 30 kW, then kick in the ICE if more power is ever needed, up until power required is at 90 kW (60 kW from ICE and 30 kW from battery), at which point, the battery will be called on for more power. Furthermore, if battery power required is over 25 kW for more than about 30-40 seconds, or over 20 kW for more than 20 seconds, or over 12 kW for 1 minute, the ICE should come on and supply power to avoid discharging the battery at a rate that's detrimental to its life span. It follows that, since the ICE can be called on any second for power, the ICE should be kept warm at all times. Heck, Toyota even has a 4-stage warm-up procedure for the Prius, which our PHEVs should duplicate in Normal mode (with modified speed thresholds for EV mode of course):

View attachment Gen III Stages - state diagram.png

Note that once the Prius gets to stage 4 of the warm-up phase, it will run the ICE whenever the coolant temp falls below 60C, to bring it up to 70C. This would be great for several scenarios, one of which is driving on cold days. It's much more efficient to use the ICE as a heater than to do it with electrical resistance. The second, and far more important, is when some other driver is being a jerk and trying to prevent you from merging, and you require maximum power. With a cold ICE, which is basically the default setting on the Outlander unless you hit the Charge button, you're basically doing the worst possible thing you can do to your engine.

The only time the PHEV should keep the ICE off and cold during driving and allow up to 60 kW to be drawn from the battery before the ICE kicks in is when it's put into EV priority mode. I wouldn't mind the default setting (either Normal or EV) of the PHEV being adjustable depending on user preference, but it's crazy that the only way I can get the ICE to warm up not under a high load scenario is to hit the Charge button briefly, and the only way I can keep the thing warm is to monitor the coolant temps in PHEV watchdog and hit Charge whenever it falls below 60C.

 

[anko]

Question for you: will you ever buy a plugin hybrid again?

 

[STS134]

Question for you: will you ever buy a plugin hybrid again?

Of course I would. This thing has cut down on trips to the gas station by 50%! It just irritates me that I have to constantly babysit the operating modes because the engineers didn't use sensible default settings. I constantly have to toggle Charge on and off to warm the ICE, have to use Save on the freeway to prevent it from discharging the battery at 3C, etc. The only time I do NOT have to babysit the thing is when I do trips on local streets entirely in EV mode. All of this could in theory be solved with a software update.

By the way, warming the ICE on trips where it's beneficial to use it, and keeping it warm, would probably solve the oil fuel dilution issue. http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2110&start=10

 

[jaapv]

Do note that Mitsubishi modified the ICE to resist frequent cold-full power starts, using specially determined tolerances and coatings.
I suspect that this is the reason that it does not sound as sophisticated as many other modern engines do.

"Keeping the engine warm" is not as important as it used to be in the past anyway for any car, with the constantly improving lubricant technology and present-day engineering.

 

[anko]

Question for you: will you ever buy a plugin hybrid again?

Of course I would.

That surprises me somewhat. As it seems you totally prefer the behaviour of hybrids over that of plugin hybrids. IMHO, the things you have issues with are typical for PHEVs, not just for the Outlander PHEV.

The only time I do NOT have to babysit the thing is when I do trips on local streets entirely in EV mode. All of this could in theory be solved with a software update.

What software update will help the car predict whether your trip will be within EV range and on local streets?

 

[jaapv]

Maybe if it is linked to the navigation system?

 

[Tipper]

I had assumed the car's heating system circulated hot water around the engine too, as well as the traction battery and cabin heater, so that an engine start was not 'stone cold'. Is that not the case?

In addition I had assumed that cars used in sub-zero environments, eg Scandinavia/Canada, etc, utilised the pre-heat function to warm the engine. If not, why not?

 

[anko]

Maybe if it is linked to the navigation system?

Sure. That would be nice. But that would be a little bit more than just a software update. And you had to be able to tell your satnav whether your destination was your final destination or just a way point. Etc.

 

[anko]

I had assumed the car's heating system circulated hot water around the engine too, as well as the traction battery and cabin heater, so that an engine start was not 'stone cold'. Is that not the case?

Not different than any other car you have driven before. Obviously, I don't know about the latest versions, but in the early versions, the heater was there for the passengers, not for the engine. Imagine you not getting warm because the heater is warming up an engine that you are not going to use?

 

[STS134]

Do note that Mitsubishi modified the ICE to resist frequent cold-full power starts, using specially determined tolerances and coatings.
I suspect that this is the reason that it does not sound as sophisticated as many other modern engines do.

"Keeping the engine warm" is not as important as it used to be in the past anyway for any car, with the constantly improving lubricant technology and present-day engineering.

Do you think that Mitsu's engine can survive literally being put at WOT when completely cold? Because I've had this scenario happen a few times when some other driver decides to be a jerk. I'm sure that it handles it better than a typical engine, but it's still better if the thing is warm when this happens.

That surprises me somewhat. As it seems you totally prefer the behaviour of hybrids over that of plugin hybrids. IMHO, the things you have issues with are typical for PHEVs, not just for the Outlander PHEV.

What software update will help the car predict whether your trip will be within EV range and on local streets?

The software update wouldn't predict whether my trip will be in EV range. But when I start the car, I know if it will be within EV range or not, and I can select the proper mode once and leave it alone, as opposed to constantly babysitting the controls.

The update would work as follows:

Normal mode: Warms up the ICE when car is started. Prevents the car from ever drawing more than 30 kW from the battery unless the total power demand exceeds 90 kW. Kicks in the ICE whenever the speed exceeds 50 mph or 80 km/h for more than 1 minute. Uses EV mode as much as it can at lower speeds, under the constraints of keeping the ICE warm (runs the ICE if coolant temp falls below 60C until it hits 70C, for example).

EV Priority mode: Does not warm the ICE. Uses EV mode as much as it can; car will go up to 78 mph or 125 km/h in EV mode. ICE will NOT come on, even if power demanded is up to 60 kW (basically, same as it is now)

These modes should be "memorized" when the car is switched off. If in Save or Charge mode when switched off, the car will start up in Normal mode. If in EV Priority mode when the car is switched off, the car will start up in EV Priority mode. Like Toyota's system, there would be an approximately 10 second delay, when in Normal mode and started up cold, before the system fires the ICE; this gives the user time to select EV Priority mode if he/she wants to use it without having the ICE come on.

Right now, my experience is as follows:
Start out in a parking lot or on surface streets: Select EV Priority mode if staying on surface streets the entire trip, or stay in Normal mode otherwise.
Going on the freeway: When I get to the last traffic signal before the freeway, toggle Charge mode ON and OFF to fire the ICE and warm it up, then enter Save mode.
Traffic jam on the freeway: Back to Normal mode
Clear of traffic jam on freeway: Back to Save mode
Getting off the freeway: Normal mode or EV Priority mode
Ascending a steep hill: Save mode

It's a really crappy experience having to press buttons and babysit the thing all the time. Why can't they just have sensible default settings? Porsche's Cayenne S E-Hybrid for example, strongly favors ICE power when it goes above approximately 30 to 35 mph, unless it is put into EV mode, in which case it will go up to 78 mph on electricity alone. But even that car lacks a mode that warms the ICE and keeps the coolant warm for later use; do note though that going over 30 to 35 mph (which is the case on the vast majority of drives) in its default mode will fire the ICE and warm it up.

I had assumed the car's heating system circulated hot water around the engine too, as well as the traction battery and cabin heater, so that an engine start was not 'stone cold'. Is that not the case?

In addition I had assumed that cars used in sub-zero environments, eg Scandinavia/Canada, etc, utilised the pre-heat function to warm the engine. If not, why not?

I believe the car fires the ICE if the temperature is very low; it has not ever gotten this cold around here. I can confirm (with PHEV Watchdog) that the coolant temp does not budge if you are in EV Priority mode or Normal mode and the ICE does not fire; when the ICE starts, it will be just as cold as it was when you started the vehicle.

 

[jaapv]

Well, my engine is being used as intended by Mitsubishi for 120.000 km now and shows no discernible wear or oil consumption. I have no doubt that -bar an unforeseen calamity- it will easily surpass Mitsubishi's stated design parameter of 300.000 km. I think this is a non-issue.

 

[STS134]

Well, my engine is being used as intended by Mitsubishi for 120.000 km now and shows no discernible wear or oil consumption. I have no doubt that -bar an unforeseen calamity- it will easily surpass Mitsubishi's stated design parameter of 300.000 km. I think this is a non-issue.

The engine in my previous car (Toyota Corolla with 1ZZ-FE engine) consumed almost no oil for the first 160,000 mi (250,000 km) of its life. By 180,000 mi (290,000 km), it was consuming about 0.25 qt (0.23 L) of oil per 5000 miles (8000 km). Around 200,000-225,000 miles (320,000-360,000 km), consumption was at around 0.5 qt per 5000 miles, and at the time it got totaled by an idiot not paying attention behind me in traffic, it had 240,000 mi (385,000 km) and consumption was up to around 0.75-1.0 qt per 5000 mi. I was trying to figure out at what point I should have the piston rings replaced and the cylinders rebored.

You'll have almost no noticeable oil consumption for a long time, and then suddenly once the wear gets to a point where a noticeable amount of oil starts to get consumed, it'll start increasing rapidly. Mitsubishi cares only about whether the engine can survive the warranty period without consumption exceeding the specified limits. They don't necessarily have our best interests in mind with respect to long term repair costs. Toyota, by the way, had a specified consumption limit of something insane, like 1 qt per 800 mi or something like that (had to call a dealership and they had to look up these numbers and get back to me; they're apparently not widely publicized). That's why I didn't have them rebore the cylinders at that point because even if they had made the problem worse, they could have just claimed that consumption still fell within spec and it wasn't their problem.

 

[jaapv]

Driving a classical (British :mrgreen: ) car I am well aware of problems like wear and oil consumption. However, with modern cars I couldn't care less. If it gets up to 300.000 km it will be a complete economic writeoff anyway.
This car is designed for this type of use. As far as I'm concerned I leave the worrying to Calimero.

 

[AndyInOz]

... As far as I'm concerned I leave the worrying to Calimero.

<whinging chicken voice>

Ah! Poor little Calimero, nobody loves him, ah, it is an injustice, it is!

</whinging chicken voice>

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovzN-0hJgI

 

[Woodman411]

After driving the Outlander PHEV for the past 4-5 months, I think it needs a mode in which it keeps the ICE warm, charging the battery or propelling the car opportunistically if it has to run the ICE anyway to keep it warm, but not actually running the ICE for these purposes. You know, the way pretty much every non plug-in hybrid electric vehicle operates, and the way the PHEV probably operates when the battery is depleted. But we should have a way to force it to do this when the battery is NOT depleted.

Looking through the manual, it states the ICE will turn on "in cold weather... if the vehicle has not been used for a long period of time... if the engine has not been started for a long period of time". Also this "When the ambient temperature lowers, the engine will start frequently, even if there are many remaining power of the main drive lithium-ion battery." It seems the concept of warming up the engine is there, just not as frequent as you like? The fact that you're experiencing engine oil dilution may indicate a more frequent ICE-on setting is needed.

Ideally, Mitsubishi would allow one to enter user-preferred parameters (with reasonable limits), such as
- max battery charge (doesn't matter through plug or ICE)
- max speed before ICE-on
- max draw before ICE-on
- max minutes before ICE-on
- low temperature before ICE-on
with the goal of allowing the user to determine the balance between range and longevity. It's clear on this forum there are those who prefer more e-range and less concerned with longevity, and vice versa.

 

[jaapv]

Too many user-settable parameters lead to too many opportunities for the user to make detrimental choices.
It assumes that the user knows what he is doing.

 

[elm70]

Ideally, Mitsubishi would allow one to enter user-preferred parameters (with reasonable limits), such as
- max battery charge (doesn't matter through plug or ICE)
- max speed before ICE-on
- max draw before ICE-on
- max minutes before ICE-on
- low temperature before ICE-on
with the goal of allowing the user to determine the balance between range and longevity. It's clear on this forum there are those who prefer more e-range and less concerned with longevity, and vice versa.

Yes, it would be nice to configure as much as possible

But, I don't see how Mitsubishi can still keep the guarantee agreement with too much configurable parameters which might impact on the life of the ICE or battery

Still .. some option would be a win-win for everybody:
- Allow to charge only up to 80% ... this for people that live on a top of a hill, or people that may not need the full Ev range (still this is achievable via the charging timers, but in a tricky and inaccurate way)
- ICE always off if there is enough battery, independently by the foot on gas pedal (excluding the kick off), and mainly independently by outside temperature (this should be the new EV button mode, which I'm not sure it is working all the time as expected)

PS: Personally I would like to be able to configure the max regen braking power ... I think the Outlander PHEV does push too much kw compared to the battery size ... I would appreciate to have option to limit the regen braking to just 20 or 25kw ... even using B0 I see that sometime regen braking is above or close to 30kw

 

[greendwarf]

This seems to be a "new" world issue - different weather, distance & driving conditions to Europe/Japan/Australia?

 

[STS134]

After driving the Outlander PHEV for the past 4-5 months, I think it needs a mode in which it keeps the ICE warm, charging the battery or propelling the car opportunistically if it has to run the ICE anyway to keep it warm, but not actually running the ICE for these purposes. You know, the way pretty much every non plug-in hybrid electric vehicle operates, and the way the PHEV probably operates when the battery is depleted. But we should have a way to force it to do this when the battery is NOT depleted.

Looking through the manual, it states the ICE will turn on "in cold weather... if the vehicle has not been used for a long period of time... if the engine has not been started for a long period of time". Also this "When the ambient temperature lowers, the engine will start frequently, even if there are many remaining power of the main drive lithium-ion battery." It seems the concept of warming up the engine is there, just not as frequent as you like? The fact that you're experiencing engine oil dilution may indicate a more frequent ICE-on setting is needed.

Ideally, Mitsubishi would allow one to enter user-preferred parameters (with reasonable limits), such as
- max battery charge (doesn't matter through plug or ICE)
- max speed before ICE-on
- max draw before ICE-on
- max minutes before ICE-on
- low temperature before ICE-on
with the goal of allowing the user to determine the balance between range and longevity. It's clear on this forum there are those who prefer more e-range and less concerned with longevity, and vice versa.

Yes, and I did confirm that if it's cold enough (8°C at least), AND I start the car AND I crank up the cabin heat setting, the ICE will start. But it's still a problem that I can't warm the ICE without turning on cabin heat, and in warm weather, except by toggling charge mode.

Too many user-settable parameters lead to too many opportunities for the user to make detrimental choices.
It assumes that the user knows what he is doing.

I know what I'm doing. I don't care how many levels deep in the menus this is buried. Apple designed OSX so that it can be used by anyone, but if geeks want access to all of the stuff underneath, they can bring up a terminal and reconfigure settings. The same should be done here so that if you do know what you are doing, you can customize the configuration.

 

[Woodman411]

Too many user-settable parameters lead to too many opportunities for the user to make detrimental choices.
It assumes that the user knows what he is doing.

Except in this case, some users including myself view the default settings as too aggressive for the battery drive, the default settings could be set as the upper limit. For example, lowering the battery charge range to 45-75% is less aggressive than the default range of 30-90%(?).