How much would you pay for a charge?

[user 417]

Not being an EV owner YET, I have no idea what the normal cost of a charge at a public charging station is, although I have heard of some charging £4.50 a time. So what would YOU pay to charge your PHEV?

I was doing some sums about what a charge is worth compared to just running in hybrid mode. It might surprise you. I am basing my calculations on Mitsubishi's official figures, so assuming 32 miles on a full charge and 47 MPG on petrol. YMMV.

Equivalent amount of petrol used to drive 32 miles = 32/47 gallons = 0.68 imperial gallons = 3.09 litres.
Cost of 3.09 litres of unleaded petrol based on today's UK average = £4.01
Assuming a fast charger only gives an 80% charge, value of a charge compared to petrol = £3.21.

So would you pay £3 for a charge or would you just use petrol? Where would be your cut-off point before it becomes too much trouble?

How does it work out for PHEV owners in other countries?

 

[pheverish]

Recalculate based on an average 40 mpg with an effective range of 18 miles (motorway) and 25 miles (non motorway). Paying to charge is not worth it. (Imho)

 

[maby]

Your figures broadly make sense - though the 47mpg on petrol may be a little optimistic if you listen to those here who already have their cars.

Personally, I'm not expecting to make much use of public charging points - I think I will rarely be stopped near one long enough to make it worth my time to plug up. There may be times when I visit out London office that I could leave it on charge for several hours and get a full battery. But it would have to be pretty cheap before I bothered - the nearest car park with charging points to my office is probably twenty minutes walk away - I'm a lazy beggar and it would have to be close to free before I would walk that far rather than park in the NCP next door to the office and burn an extra three quarters of a gallon.

If I'm at a supermarket or shopping centre or half an hour, will I bother plugging up even if it is free? Probably not.

 

[maby]

Recalculate based on an average 40 mpg with an effective range of 18 miles (motorway) and 25 miles (non motorway). Paying to charge is not worth it. (Imho)

This is probably closer to the truth - yes.

I do not intend to get too hung up on electric operation. I will plug up at home and, as a result, will burn very little petrol Monday to Friday. Over the weekend and on holidays, or the occasional longer work related journey, it's a petrol car.

Nobody saves money in any strict sense by buying a hybrid car. I'm currently running an elderly diesel Landcruiser that does around 20mpg. It runs ok, but looks tatty - but it would scrub up well enough with plenty of T-Cut and Mer. I'm pretty sure that you could get a similar one for around £5000 - that's at least £25000 less than the price of a new Outlander. Am I going to save more than £25,000 on reduced fuel bills over the next 10 years or so that the Outlander is likely to last? Of course not! My total fuel bill in the Landcruiser over that period will not be much more than £25,000 at current prices.

I'm buying the Outlander because I like the car - I want a new reasonably large 4WD automatic estate and the Outlander fills the bill. The hybrid functionality is nice to have, but its primary value is tax avoidance - the car costs the same as many other comparable 4WDs to buy, but you get some nice tax concessions and don't have to pay the Congestion Charge - at least for now.

 

[user 258]

Hi,

I think York (UK) recently changed their pricing to be 15p per KWh which I thought was good value.

I would pay a couple of pounds for a full recharge. If it isn't significantly cheaper than petrol then I'm unlikely to bother. I haven't bought a mode 1 to mode 2 cable because it is unlikely to pay for itself anytime soon.

I expect to occasionally (two or three times a year) use the free Ecotricity rapid chargers when the wife makes me go to IKEA or there just happens to be one on a motorway service station we stop at.

Kind regards,
Mark

 

[maddogsetc]

Having just got back from a 150 mile trip when I stopped to charge twice (more for the novelty than anything else) I tend to agree that, for this car, paying to charge is pretty much a non-starter.

I used the Ecotricity rapids, so the electrons were free. But my journey time was extended by about 50 minutes, plus a little bit longer for the stop I made only to find the charging station occupied by a Nissan Leaf. And a bit more because it was the first time I'd used one and couldn't work it out for 5 mins or so. And on the second stop I only got a bit more than 50% charge (on the display - so probably about 60-65% actual) anyway.

So, I wouldn't go out of my way to charge even if it were free, and I'll only ever use a public charger if it's free (or at least no dearer than my home supply), it's en-route, and it's somewhere and somewhen I don't mind stopping for half an hour.

It would be a completely different story of the car were capable of taking a charge that would get me 100 miles plus. Like a Nissan Leaf, I guess!

 

[maby]

Having just got back from a 150 mile trip when I stopped to charge twice (more for the novelty than anything else) I tend to agree that, for this car, paying to charge is pretty much a non-starter.

I used the Ecotricity rapids, so the electrons were free. But my journey time was extended by about 50 minutes, plus a little bit longer for the stop I made only to find the charging station occupied by a Nissan Leaf. And a bit more because it was the first time I'd used one and couldn't work it out for 5 mins or so. And on the second stop I only got a bit more than 50% charge (on the display - so probably about 60-65% actual) anyway.

So, I wouldn't go out of my way to charge even if it were free, and I'll only ever use a public charger if it's free (or at least no dearer than my home supply), it's en-route, and it's somewhere and somewhen I don't mind stopping for half an hour.

It would be a completely different story of the car were capable of taking a charge that would get me 100 miles plus. Like a Nissan Leaf, I guess!

Even at 100 miles plus, it is a real pain till they find a way to squeeze all that charge in in more or less the same time as it takes to fill a tank with petrol. Apart from the inconvenience to the driver, think of the impact on garages and motorway service areas. You can put enough petrol into the tank of an ordinary car to do 300 miles in around 5 minutes between the filling time and the time to pay. If it takes twenty minutes to get enough charge to do 100 miles into the car, we'll need to increase the area devoted to refuelling stations by a factor of 12 or more.

 

[Posty]

If you assume that no one is charging at home that's true, but as most people, most days won't need to use public charging then who knows the gross area required might actually decrease.

 

[maby]

If you assume that no one is charging at home that's true, but as most people, most days won't need to use public charging then who knows the gross area required might actually decrease.

That is probably true if the range of the cars on a single charge is several hundred miles but at 100 miles, motorway service areas would still be under pressure. We really do need some significant advances in battery technology before electric vehicles can become mainstream.

 

[maddogsetc]

That is probably true if the range of the cars on a single charge is several hundred miles but at 100 miles, motorway service areas would still be under pressure. We really do need some significant advances in battery technology before electric vehicles can become mainstream.

My original comment about the 100 mile range was in response to the OP's question ie. the value that I would place on a public charge right now would be different if I drove a car capable of covering 100+ miles on a single charge. That would make journeys of up to 200 miles quite viable as a half hour stop over such a duration isn't a great inconvenience to me.

But I agree that, in the longer term electric cars will only become mainstream if recharging is faster and range is greater. And in that sense I think the whole concept of public charging will ultimately have to change. At present the gulf between the battery tech we have and what is desirable is too great but how far does the gap have to close before one of the oil majors 'sees' the future and puts some significant investment towards battery / charging R&D?

After all they have the sites, the network and the brands. All they are lacking is the motivation to change the status quo but if recharging time were to drop to say 15 minutes for 100 miles then I think it would start to become viable. After all we've all become used to waiting for a pump whilst the driver in front does their weekly shop at the local BP/M&S.

As to the safety angle with having petrol pumps and rapid chargers in close proximity, well that's another matter...

 

[maby]

I'm not sure who takes the lead in getting electric vehicles mainstream. There's no incentive for the oil companies to do so - they don't generate electricity. And I suspect that the electricity companies are terrified of it - they can only just generate enough to meet current demands- if we all start drawing an extra 20 kwh per day, the grid could grind to a halt!

 

[user 258]

Hi,
I personally think that range extended EV's (such as the BMW i3 with its 600cc engine & 2 gallon fuel tank) and cars such as the PHEV is the way to go. Best of both worlds. I think it is only about £2k for the range extender option on the i3.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[maddogsetc]

There's no incentive for the oil companies to do so - they don't generate electricity. And I suspect that the electricity companies are terrified of it - they can only just generate enough to meet current demands- if we all start drawing an extra 20 kwh per day, the grid could grind to a halt!

Interesting point about the supply capacity - I've been thinking the same for some time now, especially given that our national record on constructing new power plants has been pretty poor for the last couple of decades. I had an alcohol fuelled debate a while back with an acquaintance who is an energy analyst for the Govt - surprisingly he didn't see it my way and felt that there was capacity to cope.

Whilst I agree that the oil companies have no incentive to promote EV's in the near future I'm sure that they must be looking at contingency plans for the medium term as IMHO there will be a tipping point in the not to distant future when the public start to switch to EV's en masse.

 

[greendwarf]

I'm with Maby on this. My battered 2.0 Avensis GLS estate is now 16 years old and although ran perfectly to Ireland & back last week is starting to clock up extra costs (new radiator etc.) having done over 100k miles - and my wife wants a new car. I was going to buy a Skoda Superb estate to replace it (liked the name) which would cost over £20k (although I could get a good one 2nd hand for about 10K) and at 65 this would probably be my last big car, as I'm still running a taxi service for children/grandchildren etc. :roll:

However, I live in London where pollution (especially from diesels) is a real issue, so the idea of an EV estate for shopping/commuting most days was an extra incentive with 4WD giving the option of driving to the ski slopes next February. I will still need to drive to Southend regularly but, even on petrol alone, the PHEV is likely to be more economical than the Avensis. So overall I expect to save money over the life of the car - 10+ years(?). Also my wife likes the car and has offered to pay for half of it

How much would I pay for a charge? As little as possible! - especially if I had to pay for parking as well. I did note that the Ecotricity chargers at the motorway service areas I stopped at during the Irish trip were always empty (and near the facilities) so, having broken my journey, I would have used them but would not make a special stop just to recharge.

What I could imagine doing, is stopping at the Thurrock Services when going to Southend to top up on charge to use when I get there but it all depends on expected traffic levels for a particular journey - for example after returning to London from Ireland I had to go round the M25 to get to Southend (to deliver 2 teenagers) and spent significant time (M4/M25 and Dartford sections) crawling when presumably the EV would have been much cheaper - so this would have justified topping up at the Heston Services.

 

[jayfdee]

About the only time I would use a public charging point is the ecotricity points at Motorway services. You are stopping anyway,they are free and usually no-one is using them and they are near the coffee shops etc.
It is worth it just to get a decent parking space.
I do think most hotels will soon feel obliged to offer a charging service,in the same way as free wifi. My wife and I will not stop at an Hotel or appartment unless it has wifi,similarly if hotel charging points become common they will attract my custom.

 

[chindley]

I'm not sure who takes the lead in getting electric vehicles mainstream. There's no incentive for the oil companies to do so - they don't generate electricity. And I suspect that the electricity companies are terrified of it - they can only just generate enough to meet current demands- if we all start drawing an extra 20 kwh per day, the grid could grind to a halt!

Interesting interview here from the national grid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX0G9F42puY&list=PLzD0K2OhbVfHwKP4W8AAkmc46I03TWGxc

If they get more people charging at night to get rid of the "Bath tub effect" electricity prices will drop.

 

[maby]

The trouble is that, while they have spare generating capacity over night, all the reliable sources of electricity involve burning some other fuel - and all those fuels are imported. Solar is going to contribute nothing to charging our electric cars overnight - unless you install enormous banks of floodlights shining onto your roof (!) - and wind tends to die down overnight. Most of the electricity that goes into our cars is going to come from burning gas, coal or nuclear fuel - ad those are in quite short supply. In the middle of winter, we barely have enough gas as it is.

Filling up his "bath tub" might make his life a bit easier, but it will give the generators something to think about as they try to source more gas and coal.

 

[rgilyead]

Actually, for most of the year overnight generation is baseload nuclear. Wind and tidal power would work effectively at night too.

 

[greendwarf]

I'm not sure who takes the lead in getting electric vehicles mainstream. There's no incentive for the oil companies to do so - they don't generate electricity. And I suspect that the electricity companies are terrified of it - they can only just generate enough to meet current demands- if we all start drawing an extra 20 kwh per day, the grid could grind to a halt!

Interesting interview here from the national grid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX0G9F42puY&list=PLzD0K2OhbVfHwKP4W8AAkmc46I03TWGxc

If they get more people charging at night to get rid of the "Bath tub effect" electricity prices will drop.

I read a piece about Ireland some time ago - their plan was to go big on wind and EV on the basis that charging at night would soak up the spare capacity and still leave 20% surplus to sell to the UK

 

[dukeinlondon]

On longer trips we tend to stop for 20 to 30 min for a bite and drink so a charge can't hurt if there is a free rapid. But for normal weekend use when pushing it a bit further than the usual local errands and going say to a not too distant attraction, I wouldn't object paying maybe £2 for a full charge, just because I like the idea of pure electric driving and in the last few occasions, it would have kept the petrol/electric power ratio close to 0%

But given that the car will be burning gas to avoid it getting stale in the tank and in normal driving (no steep hill/no towing), it's hard to notice the ICE running, I am not bothered.