Home Charging PHEV

[tompaterson]

Hi All,

First post. Just purchased a 4h and am looking at home charger options.
I'm looking at either a Rolec, ABL or Chargemaster set up.
I will probably end up putting the charger on the side of the house, and running
a long lead to the Outlander. So ABL looks goos as it's socket is on the right hand side
of the box.

Any thoughts, ideas about which box. I'm thinking about going for the 32A version to
future proof, as it's the same price for 16A or 32A with Chargemaster or Roles.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks
Tom

 

[ps44]

Do you need to go fast charge ?
I'm fine with the supplied plug in charger using a socket just inside the garage door, and charging overnight at off peak rate.
My usage pattern works well on overnight charging with a very occasional day time top up.

 

[NightPHEVer]

There's a fairly extensive post covering this subject 'Home charging point installation' on page 8 in General/Main Outlander PHEV forum. I've got a 32amp Rolec in my garage and as has already been mentioned, to be honest, a regular 3-pin socket (using the 3-pin plug charging device supplied with the PHEV) would be fine for most requirements. About 5 hours to charge instead of 3.5. So if you're an overnight charger - which I'm guessing most people are - then there's no real advantage in having a 'fast' charger. Any local, qualified electrician should be able to install a dedicated 3-pin socket to charge with.

However, the 3-pin socket needs to be on its own, dedicated supply wire suitable for prolonged use a 10amps, otherwise it will very likely overheat at the plug. Everytime I've plugged mine into an ordinary, existing 3-pin socket, the 3-pin plug has got a bit to hot for my liking. If possible it's highly desirable in the long run if the installation is inside a garage, although I believe it's all supposed to all work ok outside in the open. I don't know what the long term implications are for out-in-the-open charging, as mine's in a garage.

 

[anko]

So if you're an overnight charger - which I'm guessing most people are - then there's no real advantage in having a 'fast' charger.

Until you start preheating the car in the morning. The heater takes more power than a 16 amps charge can provide. So, so is taken from the battery, meaning you will drive away wit a battery that is not full. With a 10 amps charger even more so.

However, the 3-pin socket needs to be on its own, dedicated supply wire suitable for prolonged use a 10amps, otherwise it will very likely overheat at the plug.

Correct me if I am wrong, but IMHO overheating of the plug is caused by poor quality sockets, not by sockets on a shared supply wire (how could it?). So, it should be sufficient to install a decent socket.

 

[Lance]

I got a 32amp rolec charger (which obviously works at 16) both for the reason anko mentions on preheating and also because my weekend usage often means charging during the day after a morning trip and in several cases the quicker charge has added many more miles to the EV range than would have been possible on just the granny charger.

 

[jaapv]

But even with preheating a 32 A charger will not have any advantage over 16A as the car is not able to charge at a higher amperage than 16.

I would expect a 32A appliance to throw a bit of a strain on a normal household installation anyway. I would prefer it to use a 400V three-phase circuit.

 

[Regulo]

How so, Jaapv? Most UK households have a 100A incoming fuse, and if a direct feed is taken via a breaker from the main consumer unit in the correct gauge cable there shouldn't be a problem. You've still got 68 amps to play with.

 

[Lance]

Preheating on a 16amp is much better than the 10amp.

I've got a 100amp main fuse with the charger installed correctly on its own breaker so no strain at all on my electrics.

 

[jaapv]

How so, Jaapv? Most UK households have a 100A incoming fuse, and if a direct feed is taken via a breaker from the main consumer unit in the correct gauge cable there shouldn't be a problem. You've still got 68 amps to play with.

Most households here have 1, 2 or 3 times 25 Amps.
Of course one can get stronger fuses ( I have 3x 35, but I have a 12 kW Sauna running plus the charger and a 10 kW oven) but there will be extra costs.

 

[user 1877]

Until you start preheating the car in the morning. The heater takes more power than a 16 amps charge can provide. So, so is taken from the battery, meaning you will drive away wit a battery that is not full. With a 10 amps charger even more so.

Just for clarification. Are you saying that a 32amp charger does a better job of pre-heating than a 16amp charger or is the car limited to taking 16amps irrespective of whether it is charging, pre-heating or both?

 

[anko]

Are you saying that a 32amp charger does a better job of pre-heating than a 16amp charger or is the car limited to taking 16amps irrespective of whether it is charging, pre-heating or both?

My charger is a 16 amp charger, yet the car's OBC limits power consumption to 3300 watt maximum (or about 14.5 amps), at any time: when charging or when preheating or when doing both (well charging and preheating at the same time is obviously not possible). So, no there is no added value in installing a 32 amps charger as long as you are only looking at the Outlander PHEV. My comment regarding preheating was inspired by NightPHEVer's statement that a 16 amps charger had no added value over the standard 10 amps charge cable "if you were an overnight charger". Preheating makes that a 16 amps charger does have added value over a 10 amp charger, even for overnight chargers.

 

[NightPHEVer]

In reply to anko - yes, forgot about the pre-heating. As this is usually done shortly before the car is to be used then it does benefit from faster charge to replenish batteries quickly. Don't know about the 3-pin socket question, as household 13amp sockets should be capable of running a 3kw electric home heater for many hours then you'd have thought they could safely charge an EV at 10amps for 5 hours.

I believe there are potentially issues with wear resulting from use, poor quality manufacturing, or loose connections with either the socket, fuse holder or the plug - resulting in a poor connection. This as I understand it is what causes the overheating and potential meltdown (I'm no electrician though). AlI I can say is that on three different 'household' 13amp sockets, in three different locations, that I've charged my PHEV using the Mitsubishi supplied 3-pin charging cable, the 3-pin plug on the end of the charge cable has got very hot. It's never shown any sort of 'error' though. I thought this might have something to do with the 'supply' cable being is some way insufficient. Maybe not. I also assume that in the UK there would be some sort of building regulation covering the correct safety specification of a 3-pin charge point for an EV, and that the quality of the resulting installation should make it perfectly safe for a long period of use? I'm not at all convinced that should anyone suggest (like car salesmen or newspapers might for instance) that you can just plug in to any 13amp socket is correct though.

 

[geoffshep69]

I'm not at all convinced that should anyone suggest (like car salesmen or newspapers might for instance) that you can just plug in to any 13amp socket is correct though.

Why not ? Thats what Mitsubishi themselves say you can do ?

 

[Sumpy]

I'm not at all convinced that should anyone suggest (like car salesmen or newspapers might for instance) that you can just plug in to any 13amp socket is correct though.

I am going to reply in the style of the PHEV manual, here come the warnings-

1.The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is a complex machine that should only be serviced by trained and authorised persons.

2.Household electrical supplies should only be serviced, installed or worked on by trained and authorised electricians.

3.Sumpy is neither of the above and any advice given should be taken with a large pinch of salt, if not ignored completely.

As far as I remember the supply cable to the wall socket should be at least 2.5mm and should be able to carry 30 Amps open to the air and 20 Amps if installed in conduit. The fuse in the plug will get quite warm as it supplies a load close to its upper tolerance especially when operated for several hours, but if you have concerns about how hot yours is reaching then get some advice from a qualified electrician (which i'm not, have I said that?). The plug on mine gets quite warm in use which I perceive as normal operating temperature, but my better half thinks it gets too hot.
So unless you are running lots of high Current items from the same ring circuit at once and the supply circuit meets current regs then I don't see a problem (please see point 3 above)

 

[jaapv]

I'm not at all convinced that should anyone suggest (like car salesmen or newspapers might for instance) that you can just plug in to any 13amp socket is correct though.

Why not ? Thats what Mitsubishi themselves say you can do ?

Been doing just that for three years without any mishap; why should plugging in 10A into a 13 or 16A socket be a problem? In the UK the plug is even fused...
I just had a rather catastrophic electrical fire in the kitchen, though - the ice maker shorted out... So it won't be the car that makes the trouble in my experience...

 

[Regulo]

Just caught up with this. One point to consider is that the socket you might be using could be a spur taken from a ring main. If there have been DIY modifications in the past, there may be more than one socket on this spur circuit. So there is a possibility of overloading the spur circuit, depending on what else is connected at the same time. Just a thought.

 

[NightPHEVer]

Well admittedly the quite large (4mm I think) 25 metre long cable going to my garage is a radial circuit, (single wire - doesn't return to the fuse - no spurs from it though) and it might have been there since 1963. Which might not be a good thing.

Although the last time I charged using the Mitsubishi supplied 3-pin charge cable was at a holiday home in Scotland which had just been re-wired, so my assumption was that it was plugged into a ring main, meeting all the latest regulations. The 3-pin plug on the end of the charge cable still got a bit hot for my liking. No hotter than it does from my 1963 garage radial though. I've noticed that the holiday home advert now says 'no electric car charging' when it mentions free electricity now though. Although the owner did see that I had a charge cable hanging out of the window. I'm hoping that is a result of them thinking that it's expensive to charge a car, and not because any damage was caused to their wiring. I don't think any damage was caused to their wiring - nothing tripped or anything.

Obviously my 32amp Rolec is on a brand new 6mm cable with it's own consumer unit, fited by Charged EV and meets all the required regulations - it doesn't get at all hot either.

I might try my Mitsubishi 3-pin charge wire again in my garage and see if I can measure the actual temperature that the plug gets to.

 

[anko]

Well admittedly the quite large (4mm I think) 25 metre long cable going to my garage is a radial circuit, (single wire - doesn't return to the fuse - no spurs from it though) and it might have been there since 1963.

Call me stupid, but how can you charge from a single wire? And what is a radial circuit (in comparrison to what you call a ring circuit)? I mean, I know the difference between (token)ring and radial computer networks, but in terms of power supplies? I have no idea what that would mean. Same for 'returning to the fuse'.

 

[maby]

Well admittedly the quite large (4mm I think) 25 metre long cable going to my garage is a radial circuit, (single wire - doesn't return to the fuse - no spurs from it though) and it might have been there since 1963.

Call me stupid, but how can you charge from a single wire? And what is a radial circuit (in comparrison to what you call a ring circuit)? I mean, I know the difference between (token)ring and radial computer networks, but in terms of power supplies? I have no idea what that would mean. Same for 'returning to the fuse'.

I'm not familiar with continental house wiring practices, but in Britain the standard design is the Ring Main. A 16A, three core cable leaves the fuse box and runs round the house, returning to the fuse box where the two ends are joined together. The power sockets are connected across the live, neutral and earth of this ring - each socket has two runs of 16A cable back to the fuse box and the rated capacity of the ring is 32A. On a larger property, you will have multiple rings to provide the additional capacity - our house has three - one on each floor.

The building regulations permit a limited number of additional sockets to be installed as spurs taken off the back of sockets on the main ring. There was a time when I knew how many of them are permitted, but it's a long time since I read the rules. The regulations limit the total number of sockets on the rings to a level that is expected to be safe for the wiring, but over the years people tend to add spurs and the rules can end up being broken. I have putt a few in myself, but I am a qualified electronic engineer and I'm confident that it is still safe - I have come across a few installations that would give me nightmares!

 

[anko]

Ah, I see. I have never heard of such "main rings" in the Netherlands. Doesn't guarantuee anything, but I am pretty sure we don't have them over here.

Are the fuses of such a ring 32 amps? Or still 16?

I guess when NightPHEVer mentioned 'single wire' he kinda meant 'singe cable'?