Help with the charging issue

[CCBigRich]

Hi All,

New to the forum, and the EV world.

I have finally given up my evil European diesel cars and 4x4 ways and have sort an even better BiK after years of being tight on the spec and gearbox.

Ordered today a 5hs, dealers seem to have limited knowledge of what they are selling or I'm talking to the Saturday salesmen at Derby,Nottingham and Lincoln dealerships. The general synopsis is, and I quote all of them "it's a no brainer" (boring), anyway. The lease company's are no better.

Non of the dealers have been very good at confirming what the best way is to charge the PHEV on a day to day basis.

I will be driving 41 miles to and from work, my employer is kindly allowing me to charge at work (putting 2 x 16amp all weather points in the car park) as a director is also getting a hybrid Volvo T8 :mrgreen: .

Could I ask you to point me in the best direction, whether I need a (before the grant reduces in a few weeks) charger at home.

Or is just plugging into a separate circuit 16/32amp 3pin socket at home with the cars supplied charging lead sufficient....?

Confused currently and would be grateful for any advice and experiences from the floor...

 

[jaapv]

Using the supplied box - it pulls 10 A- on a household outlet will take 5 hours. Using a type 1-type2 cable on a dedicated 16 A (or more) charging unit or using a tethered 16A unit will take 3.5 hours.

 

[greendwarf]

In 18 months of plugging in to a standard 3pin socket every night, I've never felt I've missed out by not having the 16amp charging point at home. Of course if you don't already have a handy socket and are going to pay for one then perhaps the 16amp would be worthwhile. However, a standard 13amp can be used for other equipment. :idea:

 

[ChrisMiller]

I agree with greendwarf - at home you're going to be recharging almost always overnight, so unless you're planning on getting only 4 hours sleep, a standard 13A UK socket will be fine. I was lucky to have a pair of domestic outlets right by the garage door (the car is kept on our drive), but if you are going to need a new outlet installed, I suppose that the extra (?) cost for a 16A might be worth consideration.

 

[maby]

I agree with greendwarf - at home you're going to be recharging almost always overnight, so unless you're planning on getting only 4 hours sleep, a standard 13A UK socket will be fine. I was lucky to have a pair of domestic outlets right by the garage door (the car is kept on our drive), but if you are going to need a new outlet installed, I suppose that the extra (?) cost for a 16A might be worth consideration.

If you work from home, as I do, then there can be a benefit to the fast charging socket in that it can permit a midday top-up that can help reduce fuel consumption.

 

[ChrisMiller]

I agree, maby. But it's clear this doesn't apply to the OP. I'd suggest that the number of times ones car will be at rest for 4 hours during the day, but not for 5 are going to be few (for most people). It then depends on what would be the additional cost of a 16A point.

 

[Regulo]

Big Rich, if you do go down the installed charger route, consider a 32A unit. Purely for future proofing, as it won't make any difference to the PHEV.

 

[Carnut]

I'm with Greendwarf Chris Miller.
I have only used a 13amp socket at home and charge up usually in the evening. I do not have any 'economy 7 or 10 tariffs'.
If your round trip is 41 miles and you don't need to go out during the working day I would not bother with anything more than a 13 amp socket. Just charge up overnight. For some reason the actual cost, which you can set per Kwh on one of the screens, varies when I charge mine. As low as £1.19 to £1.28 That was at 13.1pence per Kwh.
I have now changed supplier to First Utility and the cost is now 11.53pence per Kwh . I am at this moment recharging. so it will be interesting to see how much cheaper it is for a full charge.

 

[Mac]

Hi.

Out of interest I had an installer call for an installation survey. they informed me that it would cost an extra £200 or so on top of the £195 (current grant rate and installation before next month) for the charge pod, and that I would be better off sticking with the 13Amp sockets.
I got the impression that this company was not making as much profit from the grants as they would like! (The installation would not have been complicated or difficult).

 

[TheBunyip]

Hi All UK PHEVERs,

For two more days up to THUR 18th Feb 2016 "The Cheap Energy club" is offering a group switch which can save many of us a whole heap of cash.
Info and Register here. http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/cheapenergyclub

I opted for the BG Gas + Elec (NO Economy 7) and now I pay £0.09.002p /KWh which I think may be the best UK Electricity deal on the market today. Beware an early exit fee would apply if you quit the fixed price deal before the year to Feb 2017 is up. That reduced my charging costs by over 35% compared to my previous Electricity tariff. YMMV

 

[ChrisMiller]

the actual cost, which you can set per Kwh on one of the screens, varies when I charge mine. As low as £1.19 to £1.28 That was at 13.1pence per Kwh.
I have now changed supplier to First Utility and the cost is now 11.53pence per Kwh.

I hope I'm not teaching granny (or even granddad) to suck eggs, but your costs per kWh still sound a bit high. There are two different ways of calculating this cost: you can either (a) divide your total bill by the total kWh used (this gives you the key figure for comparing different suppliers); or (b) take the marginal rate for each additional kWh you use - this determines the cost of each refill and is what should be entered into the MMCS computer. A competitive tariff should give you a marginal rate of less than 10p per kWh (but as noted, it's the total cost you need to look at when comparing suppliers).

 

[Carnut]

Chris.
I don't understand your comments? Why do you think my leccy is expensive? what do you pay per Kwh?
TheBunyip reckons he can get 1 Kwh for £0.09.002 ppKwh from the 'Cheap Energy Club'.
I was getting my leccy on a dual fuel account from NPower the leccy costing £0.13.1 pKwh
I have changed to First Utility and their Kwh cost is £0.11.53 i:e:- 1.57pence cheaper per Kwh.
Both these figures were given to me by the supplying companies. I do not have any Economy 7 or 10 tariffs.
I have discounted the daily charge (which I think from any company is a scam!) because I have to pay that anyway for any and all electrical devices I use.

The figures of £1.19 and £1.28 were what the car told me the last TOTAL charge cost me.
You set the cost per Kwh on one screen and then after a charge you can go in and it will tell you what it has cost. Why they system is capable of registering a charge in tens of £ per Kwh is as stupid as not giving us MPG figures in three figures when all Mitsubishi do is brag about 148mpg.
You have to convert to litres per 100Km to get a figure on screen then convert back to MPG what bloody faff!! I have mad a little table of conversions to save messing about.
Mitsu web site
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/outlander/charging.aspx

Also from Mitsu web site F.A.Qs: HOW MUCH WILL IT COST TO CHARGE THE VEHICLE ON MY DEDICATED 16AMP POWER SUPPLY?
The actual cost depends on the energy supplier’s tariff. However, based on a standard tariff the Outlander PHEV can cost between £1 and £1.20 for a full charge. Economy 7 tariffs can be considerably cheaper than this during the night and if the vehicle’s charging timer is used in the cheaper rate hours this can reduce the charging cost significantly.

They are obviously out of touch and do not know what electricity costs in the UK or they are lying as they do about realtime driving EV ranges and realtime MPG.

 

[ChrisMiller]

what do you pay per Kwh?

Just under 10p (I'm with Co-operative Energy), but that's the marginal, not the gross rate (like you, I don't have an off-peak 'economy' tariff). It's not clear which figure you're using, but it ought to be the marginal rate (i.e. the extra amount added to your bill for each kWh you use), because that will give the true cost of charging your car. I pay £1 to £1.20 for a full* charge, which typically uses 10-12kWh.
* Even when the car shows an empty battery, there's typically over 1kWh of charge left in the 10kWh Lithium battery. The extra electricity usage is simply because no charging process is ever 100% efficient.

 

[Carnut]

Chris,
Marginal & gross are new to me. I simply asked both suppliers what I paid per Kw. Npower account now closed so cannot looksee details. I have not had a bill from First Utility, so can only go by what they told me this morning. More info when
I get my first bill.
No point telling you what today's charge cost as I had 8 EVMILES remaining.
Stop press.
Just managed to get into annual summary for NPower.
All it says for leccy is 'unit charge 13.21 pence per Kwh'.
No mention of 'marginal' or 'gross'.

 

[ChrisMiller]

Marginal & gross are new to me. I simply asked both suppliers what I paid per Kw.

Gross includes the fixed standing charge you pay to be connected (fixed however many kWh you use). This is the rate that electricity suppliers usually quote you, because it's what you need to decide which supplier will be cheaper. But it isn't the additional cost of using an extra kWh (the marginal rate) which will always be less, as it should exclude the fixed costs that don't change whether you use 100 or 10,000 kWh per annum. You should easily be able to identify the marginal rate from your bill, which will show the number of kWhs used multiplied by the marginal rate plus the fixed (standing) charges.

Edited to add: perhaps an example will help to clarify;
Last quarter (before my PHEV arrived my (entirely hypothetical bill) was;
Used: 1,000 kWh @10p each = £100 + standing charge: £50 for a total bill of £150. The gross cost per kWh is 15p, the marginal cost is 10p.

Next quarter if I use an additional 1,000 kWh charging my PHEV my bill would be;
Used: 2,000 kWh @10p each = £200 + standing charge: £50 for a total bill of £250. The gross cost per kWh is now 12.5p, but the extra cost of fuelling my PHEV is £100, an effective rate of 10p per kWh (the marginal cost).

Hope that helps!

 

[anko]

I have been forced to use 10 amps charging (instead of 16 amps) for a few weeks. I have noticed a clear impact, both in the morning when my EV range was reduced even further than normal after preheating, and 2 to 3 times a week, when my wife or myself had to go out in the evening and the battery was not recharged as far as it would have been when using a 16 amps solution.

 

[Bladevane]

Carnut - npower do not refer to gross or marginal. They agglomerate annual predicted usage and standing charges into something they confusingly call Tariff Information Label or TIL. However it is best to do what ChrisMiller describes which is to ignore the standing charge as you are paying it anyway whether you charge your PHEV or not. Then use the pence per kWh to calculate how much you spend on electrickery to charge the batteries. This should be in the region of 10.XXX to 13 or so. I personally would call this the incremental cost rather than marginal because power generators use that term when calculating the price they sell at but, hey, what's in a name?

 

[Carnut]

Bladevane,
I did say, some way back, that I did not include the daily charge as I have to pay it PHEV or not.
NPower do mention the actual cost per Kwh AND the TIL seperately. It was the actual cost of 13.1 pence per Kwh that I am using to get the car to calculate cost of each charge
We do appear to have wandered off thread and hijacked the original thread. Perhaps we should let it get back to the original question.

 

[CCBigRich]

Thanks all, invaluable insight to the UK energy market, glad I'm out of contract with my current supplier. Will be looking for the best rate for leccy for the next week...

 

[EssexBoy]

As we've seen never was there a car where the answer to most questions is "it depends". For sure many of us find a regular 13amp spur entirely adequate although some use-cases (eg anko) make a good case for having that slightly faster charge time with a dedicated 16amp supply. Note you cannot plug your vacuum cleaner into that supply which is what I can do with my external 13 amp 3 pin socket! :ugeek:
The other clear conclusion is that owning a plug-in will change your energy consumption profile so everyone should re-evaluate which supplier to go with. I just ditched First Utility (the first energy company I haven't fallen out with) for GB Energy.