Battery degradation

[Esparza]

What do you think about showing her your battery history to compare between different uses?
This is mine with almost 25 fast charges every month:

 

[SolarBoy]

At the risk of asking a silly question, how did you create the graphs?

 

[jaapv]

It seems that Mitsubishi has a point in warning against the frequent use of fast chargers.

 

[Grigou]

@Esparza, your red points are crossing a vertical line : the 20 000 km line.

Do you see the lowest 2 blue points on this line ? (the left one just on the line).

These are my 2 points

I never do fast charges, and since I bought the car (October 2014) I've driven only about 4000-5000 km from electricity (and 16 000 - 17 000 km from petrol).

 

[maby]

It seems that Mitsubishi has a point in warning against the frequent use of fast chargers.

point of terminology - surely Mitsubishi warn against the use of Rapid chargers - "Fast Chargers" are just the full 16A outlets that many of us have fitted at our houses, aren't they? That then begs the question - was the OP using the wrong term, or has he seen early battery degradation using 16A chargers?

 

[Esparza]

At the risk of asking a silly question, how did you create the graphs?

There are not silly questions It is one of the funcionalities of the EvBatmon app.

It seems that Mitsubishi has a point in warning against the frequent use of fast chargers.

I know it, soon i will stop using fast charge, it will be 25 per month but only 6 months, then i will not use it more.

@Esparza, your red points are crossing a vertical line : the 20 000 km line.

Do you see the lowest 2 blue points on this line ? (the left one just on the line).

These are my 2 points

I never do fast charges, and since I bought the car (October 2014) I've driven only about 4000-5000 km from electricity (and 16 000 - 17 000 km from petrol).

So it seems that time is more important than the km no? Even if you use it mainly with petrol.

point of terminology - surely Mitsubishi warn against the use of Rapid chargers - "Fast Chargers" are just the full 16A outlets that many of us have fitted at our houses, aren't they? That then begs the question - was the OP using the wrong term, or has he seen early battery degradation using 16A chargers?

I thought that the 16A charge is still slow charge, in fact only 3.7 kW. For me fast charge is only CHAdeMO.

 

[jdsx]

In the UK, at any rate, slow means 13A (for PHEV really =10A), fast means 16A (or 32A for other cars that can use it) and rapid is the '30 minutes from empty to 80%'.
Certainly the early LEAF batteries were much more affected by ambient temperature than any type of rapid charging. Nissan improved this on later versions, but I'm wondering (hoping :lol: ) that the same might be true of the Outlander - i.e. in Scotland I may get fewer miles out of a charge, but living in a colder climate will help prolong battery life :mrgreen:

 

[gwatpe]

MMC have quoted a maximum 20% loss of battery capacity over its life is expected. If this happens in under 5 years, then battery pack is replaced under warranty.

 

[jaapv]

Yes, but the ChaDeMo warning gives them wiggle room.

 

[Esparza]

In the UK, at any rate, slow means 13A (for PHEV really =10A), fast means 16A (or 32A for other cars that can use it) and rapid is the '30 minutes from empty to 80%'.
Certainly the early LEAF batteries were much more affected by ambient temperature than any type of rapid charging. Nissan improved this on later versions, but I'm wondering (hoping :lol: ) that the same might be true of the Outlander - i.e. in Scotland I may get fewer miles out of a charge, but living in a colder climate will help prolong battery life :mrgreen:

I'm Spanish so I translated "Rapido" to "fast", maybe here comes the confusion
A CHAdeMo charge is at only 50A, and when we regen the charge current can reach 120A, i know that during a few seconds, but is more than twice CHAdeMO current. Also 50A for a 40Ah cells is only 1.25C of charge rate, the Leaf goes up to near 2C.

Here in Spain in summer some days are really hot (>40ºC), but the active cooled battery pack helps a lot, not as the Leaf......

 

[maby]

In the UK, at any rate, slow means 13A (for PHEV really =10A), fast means 16A (or 32A for other cars that can use it) and rapid is the '30 minutes from empty to 80%'.
Certainly the early LEAF batteries were much more affected by ambient temperature than any type of rapid charging. Nissan improved this on later versions, but I'm wondering (hoping :lol: ) that the same might be true of the Outlander - i.e. in Scotland I may get fewer miles out of a charge, but living in a colder climate will help prolong battery life :mrgreen:

I'm Spanish so I translated "Rapido" to "fast", maybe here comes the confusion
A CHAdeMo charge is at only 50A, and when we regen the charge current can reach 120A, i know that during a few seconds, but is more than twice CHAdeMO current. Also 50A for a 40Ah cells is only 1.25C of charge rate, the Leaf goes up to near 2C.

Here in Spain in summer some days are really hot (>40ºC), but the active cooled battery pack helps a lot, not as the Leaf......

Hmmm, well, if you are doing 25 ChaDeMo charges per month, you are definitely breaking the Mitsubishi recommendations to maximise battery life expectancy. I don't think we have had anyone else here get anywhere near that level of usage of rapid chargers, so you are the pathfinder!

 

[Esparza]

Yes, but the ChaDeMo warning gives them wiggle room.

The first problem is how much they consider "frequent". And the second is that I will be using CHAdeMo for 5-6 months, then i will stop using it, so in 5 years we have an average of two [(25*5)/(12*5)=2] CHAdeMO charges each month, these cant be "frequent" no? :?:
Will be interesting to see if when i stop using it degradation rate decreases

 

[maby]

Yes, but the ChaDeMo warning gives them wiggle room.

The first problem is how much they consider "frequent". And the second is that I will be using CHAdeMo for 5-6 months, then i will stop using it, so in 5 years we have an average of two [(25*5)/(12*5)=2] CHAdeMO charges each month, these cant be "frequent" no? :?:

I think they would certainly consider 25 per month to be "frequent" - I suspect that many of us don't charge the car from any source more often than that! Mine gets charged two or three times per week - always on a 16A Fast charger.

I think it is also true to say that most of the battery aging takes place in the first year of its life - so perhaps it is more vulnerable to the effects of frequent rapid charging then?

 

[Esparza]

Yes, but the ChaDeMo warning gives them wiggle room.

The first problem is how much they consider "frequent". And the second is that I will be using CHAdeMo for 5-6 months, then i will stop using it, so in 5 years we have an average of two [(25*5)/(12*5)=2] CHAdeMO charges each month, these cant be "frequent" no? :?:

I think they would certainly consider 25 per month to be "frequent" - I suspect that many of us don't charge the car from any source more often than that! Mine gets charged two or three times per week - always on a 16A Fast charger.

I think it is also true to say that most of the battery aging takes place in the first year of its life - so perhaps it is more vulnerable to the effects of frequent rapid charging then?

Yes I also consider 25 per month "frequent" but not 2 per month hahahaha. But Mitsubishi can consider "frequent" 1 per month or 20 per month, so they will change my battery literally if they want, if they dont want it wont be changed doesn't matter the use pattern :lol:
Maybe it's more vulnerable, i dont know :roll:
It will be nice if some of you can post your graphs to compare

 

[maby]

...

Yes I also consider 25 per month "frequent" but not 2 per month hahahaha. But Mitsubishi can consider "frequent" 1 per month or 20 per month, so they will change my battery literally if they want, if they dont want it wont be changed doesn't matter the use pattern :lol:
Maybe it's more vulnerable, i dont know :roll:
It will be nice if some of you can post your graphs to compare

Sorry - don't have the graphs...

 

[jthspace]

I assume that Mitsubishi can track what has happened by interrogating the on-board computer which, I assume (correct me) records the charge patterns over life - how else can a graph be plotted unless they have data? So, one could argue it's only 2 per month, but the records may show something different . . .

Jeff

 

[maby]

I assume that Mitsubishi can track what has happened by interrogating the on-board computer which, I assume (correct me) records the charge patterns over life - how else can a graph be plotted unless they have data? So, one could argue it's only 2 per month, but the records may show something different . . .

Jeff

As the OP was suggesting, the question will be the period over which they calculate. I sell big computer systems and we are usually required to commit to an availability figure. Figures can range between something like 99% availability to 99.999% availability - in theory, the lower figures are less demanding. But I have seen people get into all sorts of trouble agreeing to 99.9% without noticing that the calculation period was 24 hours - 99.999% is a lot easier if calculated over a full year!

 

[Esparza]

I assume that Mitsubishi can track what has happened by interrogating the on-board computer which, I assume (correct me) records the charge patterns over life - how else can a graph be plotted unless they have data? So, one could argue it's only 2 per month, but the records may show something different . . .
Jeff

I dont know if the car records the charge pattern (someone?) but i havent seen any graph from mitsubishi. The graph that I plotted is done recording Date, Km and Ah each time i connect my phone with the OBDII adapter with the help of EvBatmon.
But I insist, the average will be 2 per month, if warranty is 5 years, the frequency has to be measured in that 5 years no?

 

[Esparza]

I assume that Mitsubishi can track what has happened by interrogating the on-board computer which, I assume (correct me) records the charge patterns over life - how else can a graph be plotted unless they have data? So, one could argue it's only 2 per month, but the records may show something different . . .

Jeff

As the OP was suggesting, the question will be the period over which they calculate. I sell big computer systems and we are usually required to commit to an availability figure. Figures can range between something like 99% availability to 99.999% availability - in theory, the lower figures are less demanding. But I have seen people get into all sorts of trouble agreeing to 99.9% without noticing that the calculation period was 24 hours - 99.999% is a lot easier if calculated over a full year!

Whats the meaning of OP? Sorry for my english
I like your example

 

[jaapv]

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