Anybody charged the PHEV from 12v to AC Inverter ?

[elm70]

Hi,

In a future scope of putting some solar panels and some battery storage at home ... I did test if was possible to charge my PHEV via a 100Ah 12V lead acid battery and a 5kw inverter ...

Unfortunately ... the PHEV or the charging box did not like this .. and after 2 or 3 seconds of "try" .. with never pulling more then 50w from the 220v inverter source .. and no issue at all over the 12v battery source ... it did gave up .. and the charger box blink on the charging light .. which I guess it means ... error ... while the PHEV inside does report some sort of error .... which goes away as soon as I charge from standard 220v source my car.

Any idea if using 6Amp charger may help ?

Is this maybe due to the fact that the Inverter is not doing a perfect sine wave AC voltage ?

Anybody did success charging the PHEV using a budget inverter ?

Thanks

e_lm_70

PS: This is my budget inverter that I used https://www.banggood.com/10000W-Peak-Modified-Sine-Wave-Power-Inverter-DC-12-48V-to-AC-220V-Converter-LCD-p-1251756.html ... maybe I should have look for something better .. but it is hard to know which of these Chinese inverter is decent or not ...

With this inverter I was able to power my PC, my TV/Monitor . my Boiler (up to 1500w power) without problem .. but the charging box / PHEV did fail .. even before starting to charge

 

[anko]

Input is DC+ and DC-. How is the AC output earthed? If the AC source for the EVSE is not earthed, it will go into error state after a few seconds. For reference, try charging over a two wire extension cord.

 

[elm70]

Input is DC+ and DC-. How is the AC output earthed? If the AC source for the EVSE is not earthed, it will go into error state after a few seconds. For reference, try charging over a two wire extension cord.

What do you mean by DC+ and DC- ?

EVSE isn't a pure 110v / 220v AC only ?

Chademo is DC :shock:

About charging over an extension cable, this is what I'm doing normally and it is working fine.

My Charging box does not get any "earth" .. my extension cable has only 2 wire, and the plug itself is a garden plug without any earth contact

Would it help to have a "Power Saver" inline .. something like: https://www.banggood.com/80KW-Metal-Household-Digital-Display-Voltage-Power-Energy-Saver-Box-110V-220V-p-1263145.html ... for eventually clean the 220v signal ?

 

[elm70]

About these power saver ... it is looking these are useless boxes

Just a nice package for put inside a small AC Capacitor ... which will not help much I guess ....

Anyhow a 400V AC capacitor is much cheaper then a chinese box

 

[HHL]

You do realize you're trying to pull in excess of 200A from the 12V battery... it's not going to work well, even if it did, it wouldn't last very long.

 

[anko]

Input is DC+ and DC-. How is the AC output earthed? If the AC source for the EVSE is not earthed, it will go into error state after a few seconds. For reference, try charging over a two wire extension cord.

What do you mean by DC+ and DC- ?

I was talking about the 12 volt inputs to the converter. There is a -, a +, but not a grounding.

EVSE isn't a pure 110v / 220v AC only ?

Chademo is DC :shock:

See above.

About charging over an extension cable, this is what I'm doing normally and it is working fine.

My Charging box does not get any "earth" .. my extension cable has only 2 wire, and the plug itself is a garden plug without any earth contact

Are you talking about this particular experiment? Or in general? I am 95% sure my factory EVSE does not work over a 2 wire extension cord, as it checks for grounding before opening the contactor. If there is no grounding, it will go into error. I am 100% sure, my RATIO EVSE does this.

See https://chargedevs.com/features/the-evse-gmi-circuit-why-levitons-engineering-director-thinks-the-standards-should-change/ or http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?251449-EVSE-dislikes-inverter-output (not about our factory EVSE, but still ... )

 

[elm70]

You do realize you're trying to pull in excess of 200A from the 12V battery... it's not going to work well, even if it did, it wouldn't last very long.

I'm testing with a 105Ah 12V car battery .. it should have no problem to pull 200A for at least 5min .. these are rated to have insane high current burst without much "drama"

I did test indoor a small 40Ah for power a water boiler rated 1.3kw .. and this little battery not even fully charged did got a bit depressed down to 9.5V but was working via the inverter (this means it was pulling over 120A at 9.5V)

If the test would have been successfully my plan was to get 5 x 100Ah 12v battery to be charged by solar panels .. and used for provide 2kwh free juice to my PHEV every evening ...

PS: The Inverter is rated 5000w and chinese ads claim 10000w peak ... anyhow .. more likely it is a 2500w inverter capable to handle up to 5000w peak ... so 2200v x 10A .. I'm asking only 2200w .. which should be inside the capability ... and my plan is to run it for no more then 1h .. which is still a lot of time if the efficiency would be poor ... but ... will be also fine to add a timer to let it run 5min and then 5min rest, for 2h ...

I'm after only to win 2kwh charge a day from solar ... nothing more

 

[elm70]

Are you talking about this particular experiment? Or in general? I am 95% sure my factory EVSE does not work over a 2 wire extension cord, as it checks for grounding before opening the contactor. If there is no grounding, it will go into error. I am 100% sure, my RATIO EVSE does this.

See https://chargedevs.com/features/the-evse-gmi-circuit-why-levitons-engineering-director-thinks-the-standards-should-change/ or http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?251449-EVSE-dislikes-inverter-output (not about our factory EVSE, but still ... )

I'm daily charging my PHEV since more then 1y over a long (20/30meter) extension cable, which I'm sure it does not have any grounding

I though many other people here use extension cable for charge the PHEV without any issue.

My box is supposed to be the stock 10A charging box ... big and ugly ... but should be reliable.
(Exactly like this one, but with a EU/German style plug
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/images/outlander/charging/safety_cable.jpg /

)

So far .. in my simple electric life .. I never "meet" an AC equipment that require the grounding for work .. normally the ground is only as safety option ... any flow into the ground line should cause the safety device in the house electric panel to cut the power supply .. but this is done with current differential between the two power line .. so the ground is anyhow optional ...

PS: I guess in theory I can make a virtual ground .. after the inverter ... and try it out .. but i'm not sure it will give any help

 

[elm70]

One more question

With reference to the PHEV stock charging box.

If the green charging light is blinking (normally it is solid light while charging) .. I bet the charging is seen as failed from the PHEV car, and not from the box itself.

Else the red light form the box should be light up ...

So .. possibly it is the PHEV car that does not like the 220v AC from the inverter

 

[anko]

I'm daily charging my PHEV since more then 1y over a long (20/30meter) extension cable, which I'm sure it does not have any grounding

I though many other people here use extension cable for charge the PHEV without any issue.

With 3 wires, sure. But with two? That would be new to me.

So far .. in my simple electric life .. I never "meet" an AC equipment that require the grounding for work ..

Technically, it shouldn't require ground to function. But to be compliant, it needs to verify that ground is available, before closing the contactor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196

Mode 2
This is a direct, semi-active connection of the EV to the AC mains, either 250 V 1-phase or 400 V 3-phase including earth at a maximum current of 32 A. There is a direct, passive connection from the AC mains to the EV supply equipment (EVSE), which must be part of, or situated within 0.3 metres (1.0 ft) of, the AC mains plug; from the EVSE to the EV, there is an active connection, with the addition of the control pilot to the passive components.[6] The EVSE provides protective earth presence detection and monitoring; ground fault, over-current, and over-temperature protection; and functional switching, depending on vehicle presence and charging power demand. Some protections must be provided by an SPR-PRCD conforming to IEC 62335 Circuit breakers - Switched protective earth portable residual current devices for class I and battery powered vehicle applications.

A possible example uses an IEC 60309 connector on the supply end, which is rated at 32 A. The EVSE, situated in-cable, interacts with the EV to indicate that 32 A can be drawn.[7]

I would be very surprised if Mitsubishi had not implemented "protective ground presence and monitoring". Will test mine soon, on a two wire extension cord.

 

[elm70]

I'm daily charging my PHEV since more then 1y over a long (20/30meter) extension cable, which I'm sure it does not have any grounding

I though many other people here use extension cable for charge the PHEV without any issue.

With 3 wires, sure. But with two? That would be new to me.

I have multiple power cables, designed for garden usage .. all are 2 wires , there is not even the connection for the ground on these plugs

I guess all garden equipment are happy to work without the ground

 

[anko]

I guess all garden equipment are happy to work without the ground

Sure. And why not. I guess even a dishwasher can work without protective ground. But a mode 2 (so portable) EVSE is designed (or should have been designed) to not work without protective ground. Like I said, I will check mine tonight. I have three of them

- Ampera E factory supplied
- Outlander factory suppied
- Ratio aftermarket

 

[anko]

To my surprise, the Ampera E factory EVSE does not care about protective ground. So, it is not compliant with the EVSE standard. Could / should have known by looking at it: the grid side cord is about a meter long, where it is not supposed to be any longer than 30 cm.

PHEV factory and RATIO after market EVSE still to go. But need to wait for 'my' PHEV to come back home. ... with my wife :mrgreen:

-- a few hours later --

So, the RATIO after market EVSE fails on a two wore extension cord. The PHEV factory EVSE charges 'just fine'.

To me, the fact that these factory EVSEs do not meet the standard seems rather unexpected.

 

[elm70]

As expected .... Factory charger from the PHEV does not care of the ground

I did "bench" test a bit more my Inverter:

I was looking for a pot for regulate the output voltage ... if I could turn it down to 200v AC maybe I could have had more hope to make it work in the Phev charger ... but unfortunately none of the 3 regulation screw serve this job.

Testing this inverter with my Dyson Hover (which I discover it sucks almost 1kw) ... I see that in the first seconds of operation, the dyson try to start and sort of fail .. untill it make it running normally
With a power meter between inverter and hover ... I can see that the power go up and down between 50w to 300w .. until will stabilize at almost 1kw

This means there is sort of logic/cirtcuit that adapt the power output based on the load, and this "adapting" is a bit too slow

I guess the Phev detect that voltage fail when requesting full power, and after few tries it gave up on trying to use the 220v source
If the PHEV charger would request slowly more power .. I'm sure it would have worked just fine

Looking inside the inverter ... I count 8 fuses rated 35AMP each ... this is on the 12v source ... clearly these fuses tell me that the max power that this inverter can do is just 3.5kw with a very strong 12v lead acid battery .. else is more like 2.8kw max power before burn some fuses

So ... possibly ... the inverter is too cheap for the job ... I will have to try to sell on Allegro.pl .. and then try a more expensive one .. which will be already 3 time more expensive then what I got ... so .. maybe my experiment is ending here

 

[mudmuncher]

I have done a fair bit of charging using off grid 24v and 48v solar systems. (12v Just wont cut it when you want to constantly do more then 1kw).

Using this inverter/controller and the 6amp charger. You will have No problems.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HSE-2400W-24V-pure-sine-wave-solar-inverter-50A-solar-charger-battery-charger-/131415857100?hash=item1e98fed7cc

Although the larger 10amp charger is at 2.2kw it is pretty close to its maximum it should be fine to handle it. This is a pure sinewave. It can also handle up to 1.5kw of solar input.

Charging purely of the battery power at night is a bit of a false economy, you will kill your lead acid batteries pretty quick (1-2 years) doing this. The best way is to charge will the sun is up with a similar sized solar array to consumption of the item powered. The batteries act as a buffer when the solar is not at full potential.

 

[elm70]

I have done a fair bit of charging using off grid 24v and 48v solar systems. (12v Just wont cut it when you want to constantly do more then 1kw).

Using this inverter/controller and the 6amp charger. You will have No problems.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HSE-2400W-24V-pure-sine-wave-solar-inverter-50A-solar-charger-battery-charger-/131415857100?hash=item1e98fed7cc

Although the larger 10amp charger is at 2.2kw it is pretty close to its maximum it should be fine to handle it. This is a pure sinewave. It can also handle up to 1.5kw of solar input.

Charging purely of the battery power at night is a bit of a false economy, you will kill your lead acid batteries pretty quick (1-2 years) doing this. The best way is to charge will the sun is up with a similar sized solar array to consumption of the item powered. The batteries act as a buffer when the solar is not at full potential.

Thanks for the info

This 2424HSE is looking a nice combined unit for handle everything, not even too expensive

I'm wondering if anybody find a more simple inverter that can do the charging job ... but I guess there is nothing for less then 200 or 300 USD that can do the task.

Possibly I will have to resell mine since it is quite useless as it is now