About to buy, need answers please

[Seeker407]

Hello all! I am about to buy (at the end of this month), but was hoping you guys could provide some answers:

Summary

0. Introduction
1. Battery (software?) problems?
2. 3rd party method to add 1500 Watts 120V AC?
3. UK/EU vs US towing?

Super quick questions:

0. Hello I am Taylor
1. Does this car have battery issues? Does it lose range after a few months? years? if yes, how much all electric range?
2. Is there a way (3rd party, dealer, etc) to get 1500W 120V AC in the standard/base/SEL version? (the GT trim has the 1500W 120V AC built into the car)
3. The UK/EU version has towing up 1,500 kg (3,307 US lbs). The US version of the PHEV has towing up to 1,500 lbs (680 kg). WHY? Is there really any difference between the versions? Is this just political issues? Please reference if possible. Thanks

Details skip if you don't like reading

0. Hi all I am Taylor. Living in hot hot Texas, United States. I don't know why yall call a trunk a boot.. haha.. a boot is what I put on my foot! kidding. I love all of our allies and their awesome English.

1. I have been watching this gentleman on youtube. In one video (see link (1) below) he claims to have lost 8.6% of battery while the car is just sitting around. Which he claims is 2.5 Ah. If you view in the comments, I asked him if he solved it, but he said to continue watching the videos. I think he found a "leak" (his 12v battery in his trunk/boot). But he later claims (see comments in (2), and video (3) and (4) for more background info) that the “battery software problem still exists”. And he claims that he will lose 0.1 Ah on a regular basis permanently (unable to recharge) until he goes to the dealership to get battery reconditioning, and/or battery smoothing.

2. In the United States, there are two versions available. The SEL and the GT. So far the only significant thing that I want in the GT is the 1500W 120V AC outlets (2). Basically you can use the car as a generator to power your house or camping gear. That is literally all I want in the GT model: the 1500 W 120V AC outlets. Is there a way to do this on the SEL/base models? Also can anyone with the 120V AC outlets say if the power will flow with the car in ACC or off? Or do you need to be in on?

3. Towing is self explanitory.

Thanks everyone!

referenced link:
(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3vtxbm2t2Y&t=170s (loss of over 8% with car just sitting)

(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6smwPouKoe8&lc=z23qypiqgwfqhx3v1acdp43aspf0n0nwvcdu1iryh2tw03c010c.1528267097009044 (see comments for conversation between Andy and I)
(3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tHx2n74e5M (The dealership told Andy that 100% = 38 Ah)
(4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5S6Bwy1G4Y shows battery degradation of car

 

[Phevy]

Welcome Taylor.

1) There is always a bad apple in a bunch. I'm hopeful it's not mine. It's just that there is no other car like it in the market, that I'm willing to take the chance. At least you have the backup of the ICE in case you run out.

2) I have not looked, but am interested. For now most of my needs have been met with a 75W 120V plugin converter.
And yes, the car has to be in the ON position to use it. I wish it could be in Acc too, but then again how much difference is there between the two modes, when you're not moving?

3) I think the issue is that here in N/A the towing speed limit is the same as the regular speed limit. So they want to make sure you can tow at 120 km/h what it's rated for. I don't have my brake controller yet and will see how fast I can go with my 1200 kg trailer when I do. If the charge cycle can only cope with a speed of 105 km/h, then I'm Ok with that. In any case the times I tow are so infrequent, that I'm fine with whatever it is. I tow when I'm on vacation, so I'm not in a hurry. I know, technically it will not let me get stranded and it won't be unsafe.

 

[elm70]

About point 1

1)
The Andy videos are quite interesting ... but ... take these for what they are ... just a "show" ... I don't think Andy did understand well what did happen in his car. Not sure he did realize this now .. definitely there is not 12V battery leakage in this PHEV.
Anyhow ... per the report of multiple people having this PHEV, it is clear that at least for model before 2016, the battery degradation is relative "high" ... "many" people report 10% battery capacity lost after 1 year, and over 20% after 2 years.
I think people with PHEV from a hot country have more problems then other, and as well, some usage patter, like towing, using B5, keep the car always on charger, using regularly Chademo do cause faster battery degradation.
Once the battery lost SOH ... this also impact the EV range, in exact proportion of the % of battery degradation.. this PHEV will always want to use from 100% down to 30% (from 4.1v to 3.8v) the battery ... there is no change of logic based on battery degradation like in the Chevrolet Volt

2) About the 120v inverter .. I don't believe it is possible to get much more then 200/300w power from an aftermarket solution, since the inverter from Mitsubishi it is connected to the main 320v battery ... while an aftermarket inverter will need to be connected to the little 12v battery on the PHEV, which will be needed to be under the car charging control (so with the "ignition" on) , else the little battery will be discharged very fast ... and I don't expect the PHEV 12v charging system to be capable to provide more then 300w from the main battery to the 12v auxiliary battery ... so using more power from a 12v inverter will cause to discharge the 12v battery even if the PHEV is trying to charge it

PS: This PHEV does not have active battery temperature management (no liquid cooling, no active cooling while the car is not used) ... so ... I'm not sure the heat of Texas is the ideal environment for this PHEV ...

 

[Seeker407]

First of all, Phevy and elm70. Thanks for the quick responses.

Most important question: is the battery warranty REAL!? 100,000 miles/10 years.. what will they cover? what will they screw you with? what are the hidden details!? Thanks guys!

Phevy:

1. I agree, this car is just too unique and awesome to pass up right now. I also think that it is worth the buy and hoping mine won't be a lemon... Have you used your battery warranty? Are there any loop holes that you're aware of that will get Mitsubishi off the hook?

2. yup.. darn.

3. I was wondering if the towing issue was related to grades/slopes. Like in the US the maximum grade (slope) is much higher than in the EU and thus wanted to cover their butts... hmm

elm70:

1. never considered the "just a show" idea... hmm 20% of 22 miles is 4 miles, so even if I only got 18miles of electric range that still isn't THAT bad... same questions as I asked Phevy: do you know about the battery warranty? does it really cover everything up to 100,000 miles/10 years? or is this just a scam and super easy for mitsubishi to get out of it? And what IS the limit when the warranty will fix it? I read the owners manual it says degradation is normal. But they don't give ranges that define "normal"..

Hopefully I don't seem too picky but I want to learn!

-like towing, - okay so when towing how do you mitigate SoH reduction? I was thinking I should just have battery at like 50% and "hold"? or what makes the most sense when towing to protect the battery?
-using B5, - is this too much energy back into the battery? or why does B5 reduce SoH? I read the user manual I didn't see the overall watts for each battery level. so not sure what B5 does vs B4. Is there an efficiency graph somewhere? (watts generated vs watts put in battery)
-keep the car always on charger, - What is the mitigation for this? I heard to set up charging so that it is just reaching full charge as you start to leave for work was the best way to go
-using regularly Chademo do cause faster battery degradation... easy.. don't use CHadEMO unless you absolutely need it.

2. darn... any way to hack into the main battery pack? I saw a guy on youtube (and somehwere on this fourm) remove the battery cells and replace with Chinese made cells that had "higher" kWh.

"PS: This PHEV does not have active battery temperature management (no liquid cooling, no active cooling while the car is not used) ... so ... I'm not sure the heat of Texas is the ideal environment for this PHEV ..."

- yeah I was concerned about this. I saw that guy tear apart the battery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf9fDbwF1K0

it has air cooling.. what if we just set up a fan of some sort.. grrr... I am moving soon anyways though soon.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

3. I was wondering if the towing issue was related to grades/slopes. Like in the US the maximum grade (slope) is much higher than in the EU and thus wanted to cover their butts... hmm

I don't think so. The maximum I've seen in the UK is 1 in 3 or 33%. I don't think anyone would recommend you tow up that. It blew the head gasket on a 70's MG Midget while we were doing the coast-to-coast trip. On a main road, I think it's 1 in 4 or 25%...

 

[jaapv]

There is a simple answer to the towing/mountain question. When you are in hilly conditions and/or towing just press the "charge" button and let the car do its thing.

If you are running at higher speeds in general like on the motorway, just estimate the amount of charge you will need at the end of the journey and use the "save" button to keep the battery at that level. When the motorway gets hilly, or you are really travelling fast, which I believe is illegal in most of the USA, hit "charge"

The paddles are mainly meant to control the rate of descent in the mountains. They can also be useful if you are feeling lazy and don't want to move your foot to the brake in busy traffic. The effect on the battery level is negligible.

For the rest, Mitsubishi has 248 miniature engineers hiding in every nook and cranny of the car to do the thinking for you. Just let the car do its work as designed.

Oh - the ECO button is rather useless, and I suspect the EV button too...

As for hacking into the battery pack - maybe a good idea if you don't think you might need the guaranty, otherwise not so good.

As for battery degradation, worrying about it is about as useful as worrying about getting wrinkles or gray hair.

 

[Harald]

Oh - the ECO button is rather useless...

When accelerating a little bit more than usual when starting from a traffic light or overtaking a cyclist in the city, the ICE usually starts up a bit too early for me.

By using the ECO button, this behaviour becomes better. At a deeper kickdown, you still get the power from the ICE but the unwanted startup of a cold engine for short time usage is significantly reduced.

 

[jaapv]

Oh - the ECO button is rather useless...

When accelerating a little bit more than usual when starting from a traffic light or overtaking a cyclist in the city, the ICE usually starts up a bit too early for me.

By using the ECO button, this behaviour becomes better. At a deeper kickdown, you still get the power from the ICE but the unwanted startup of a cold engine for short time usage is significantly reduced.

Possibly - but the impact on economy will be marginal, as you can do the same thing with your right foot.

 

[Harald]

you can do the same thing with your right foot.

Correct. And fortunately, I can choose the mode just as I like...

 

[Woodman411]

If you can, wait for the 2019 model. The changes to 2019 are much more extensive than the press release revealed, including chassis, suspension, and brake changes. The USA model probably will not get the powertrain updates, but everything else, including the front *and* rear seats, additional soundproofing, and exterior updates, are coming: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dinside.no%2Fmotor%2Fkan-ga-tre-maneder-pa-bare-strom%2F69873122&edit-text=

Source: https://www.dinside.no/motor/kan-ga-tre-maneder-pa-bare-strom/69873122

As the source states, small changes are pervasive in the 2019 model under the skin and unseen, but the sum of the parts is a model that is noticeably better than the 2018 model.

 

[elm70]

There is a simple answer to the towing/mountain question. When you are in hilly conditions and/or towing just press the "charge" button and let the car do its thing.

If you are running at higher speeds in general like on the motorway, just estimate the amount of charge you will need at the end of the journey and use the "save" button to keep the battery at that level. When the motorway gets hilly, or you are really travelling fast, which I believe is illegal in most of the USA, hit "charge"

The paddles are mainly meant to control the rate of descent in the mountains. They can also be useful if you are feeling lazy and don't want to move your foot to the brake in busy traffic. The effect on the battery level is negligible.

For the rest, Mitsubishi has 248 miniature engineers hiding in every nook and cranny of the car to do the thinking for you. Just let the car do its work as designed.

Oh - the ECO button is rather useless, and I suspect the EV button too...

As for hacking into the battery pack - maybe a good idea if you don't think you might need the guaranty, otherwise not so good.

As for battery degradation, worrying about it is about as useful as worrying about getting wrinkles or gray hair.

I can't agree with with what you state above

ECO mode is maybe not as good as we may like, but it is quite important for prevent ICE start, especially in winter

About the battery degradation ... refuse to admit that this PHEV has quite visible battery degradation is wrong ... 10% a year is a lot of battery lost .. would be interesting to hear from Anko what he think of battery degradation in our PHEV .. last time he wrote about his PHEV he did mention that battery is so bad that ICE kick in even whan battery almost full for only 50% of power inside the ECO mode .. so not only he lost almost 30% capacity, but his battery is so weak that can't provide anymore the 60kw power which was originally designed (possibly just 30kw or even less)

About starting the ICE for few seconds, when is needed an extra power for overtake .. this is something I'm not very "comfortable" with .... I was "educated" that traditional ICE car should not be run for few seconds, and then switch off .. ideally the engine need to be in temperature before switch off in a safe way, otherwise is the engine is cold and was running, it could have some fuel left inside which could cause rust if not used for weeks ... so .. in my PHEV usage, I can go for many weeks and months in pure EV mode .. so it would not be a good idea to have the ICE running for few seconds and then left unused for long time ...

 

[elm70]

...

elm70:

1. never considered the "just a show" idea... hmm 20% of 22 miles is 4 miles, so even if I only got 18miles of electric range that still isn't THAT bad... same questions as I asked Phevy: do you know about the battery warranty? does it really cover everything up to 100,000 miles/10 years? or is this just a scam and super easy for mitsubishi to get out of it? And what IS the limit when the warranty will fix it? I read the owners manual it says degradation is normal. But they don't give ranges that define "normal"..
...

I don't know what is the latest warranty coverage from Mitsubishi ... I know that my car has no warranty left, and I know early PHEV did have only a warranty on the battery only in case of failure, but no warranty at all for any level of degradation

People that manage to get some warranty service over this PHEV battery, just managed to get the battery smoothing procedure for free .. and in the case of the guy in Australia, Mitsubishi did fake the smoothing procedure, and instead they just reset the BMU, making believe the care was having a new battery

Anyhow ... the warranty coverage change almost every year, and it is potentially different in every country ... so .. you may want to check directly with Mitsubishi about which coverage they offer in US

 

[jaapv]

There is a simple answer to the towing/mountain question. When you are in hilly conditions and/or towing just press the "charge" button and let the car do its thing.

If you are running at higher speeds in general like on the motorway, just estimate the amount of charge you will need at the end of the journey and use the "save" button to keep the battery at that level. When the motorway gets hilly, or you are really travelling fast, which I believe is illegal in most of the USA, hit "charge"

The paddles are mainly meant to control the rate of descent in the mountains. They can also be useful if you are feeling lazy and don't want to move your foot to the brake in busy traffic. The effect on the battery level is negligible.

For the rest, Mitsubishi has 248 miniature engineers hiding in every nook and cranny of the car to do the thinking for you. Just let the car do its work as designed.

Oh - the ECO button is rather useless, and I suspect the EV button too...

As for hacking into the battery pack - maybe a good idea if you don't think you might need the guaranty, otherwise not so good.

As for battery degradation, worrying about it is about as useful as worrying about getting wrinkles or gray hair.

I can't agree with with what you state above

ECO mode is maybe not as good as we may like, but it is quite important for prevent ICE start, especially in winter

About the battery degradation ... refuse to admit that this PHEV has quite visible battery degradation is wrong ... 10% a year is a lot of battery lost .. would be interesting to hear from Anko what he think of battery degradation in our PHEV .. last time he wrote about his PHEV he did mention that battery is so bad that ICE kick in even whan battery almost full for only 50% of power inside the ECO mode .. so not only he lost almost 30% capacity, but his battery is so weak that can't provide anymore the 60kw power which was originally designed (possibly just 30kw or even less)

About starting the ICE for few seconds, when is needed an extra power for overtake .. this is something I'm not very "comfortable" with .... I was "educated" that traditional ICE car should not be run for few seconds, and then switch off .. ideally the engine need to be in temperature before switch off in a safe way, otherwise is the engine is cold and was running, it could have some fuel left inside which could cause rust if not used for weeks ... so .. in my PHEV usage, I can go for many weeks and months in pure EV mode .. so it would not be a good idea to have the ICE running for few seconds and then left unused for long time ...

Not worrying is something quite different from refusing to admit. I have learnt long ago that getting all het up over something you can't do anything about anyway is rather pointless. I get the impression Anko feels the same way.

I never found that the ECO button did much to prevent a cold-weather ICE start, preheating is far more effective.

The ICE in the PHEV has been designed to to withstand cold start/short run conditions. That is something that is happening to it all the time.
The problem on traditional engines that you refer to is not so much corrosion by fuel - hard to see how that would occur in normal use-, but lack of lubrication by cold oil.