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Anyone else who wouldn't have a PHEV again?
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I would seriously question the decision. Don't get me wrong - I like the car and the performance is pretty much what I was expecting, but I'm not confident about the build quality and the battery life expectancy is an issue. Our Landcruiser is close to 20 years old now, has 160,000 miles on the clock and I still trust it better.
The PHEV was a sensible purchase a couple of years ago with the favourable tax treatment at the time. Now that the BIK is ramping up and the subsidy is being reduced, I would find it a lot harder to justify.
The PHEV was a sensible purchase a couple of years ago with the favourable tax treatment at the time. Now that the BIK is ramping up and the subsidy is being reduced, I would find it a lot harder to justify.
anko
Well-known member
I don't understand. What has changed since you bought it the first time?maby said:
anko said:
A combination of personal experience, the reported experiences of others and thinking more carefully about it. I'm disappointed with the physical strength - I always recognised that it is not a serious off-roader, but the bodywork is paper-thin. Every tap or nudge leaves a significant dent and a light contact with a fallen plastic refuse bin buckled the front wing to the point where it had to be replaced. After less than 18 months, the interior is beginning to show its age and the dashboard area is developing some irritating squeaks and rattles. The engine after 16,000 miles is also beginning to get noisier than I would expect for a car of this price.
The experiences of others here like gwatpe who actually managed to bully Mitsubishi into taking his first one back and replacing it plus the rapid-charge lockups also don't inspire too much confidence. OK - I recognise that these are the grumbles of a small number of people who have suffered serious problems and they may not be statistically significant, but they do correspond with my general lack of confidence about build quality.
Regarding battery life expectancy, it is a combination of thinking more carefully about it after making the decision to purchase plus gwatpe's experience which shows that the battery is not foolproof. If the life expectancy is eight to ten years with a projected replacement cost of £3000, then this is a significant consideration. As I said in my post above, out old Landie is still running pretty well after nearly 20 years and 160,000 miles - and the engine has had no work done apart from oil changes. Hybrids get the worst of both worlds in this respect - they need both the engine and the battery in decent condition - so as they get old, you have two significant bills looming.
The tax concessions as a company car plus the subsidy rather compensate for this additional maintenance liability as the car gets older, but those tax concessions are being eroded. Fuel economy could be a significant factor for some users, but it isn't for us - we are getting about 45mpg - and I am not taking into account the cost of electricity - our effective mpg is probably closer to 40. It is certainly the case that if you use it almost exclusively for short journeys, the running costs (and environmental impact) can be very low - but I would not buy an expensive, large 4WD for that pattern of usage - I would either buy a compact petrol car at half the price and capable of 70mpg or better, or a second-hand diesel 4WD - a seven or eight year old Discovery or Landcruiser can be had for a few thousand pounds and has a life expectancy of another ten years or more - they are almost disposable these days.
If I were buying tomorrow as a private purchase with our current pattern of usage and had the money to buy new, I would look seriously at the Jeep Renegade. It's cheaper than the PHEV, would turn in similar running costs for us and I think I would have more confidence in it.
jaapv
Well-known member
I would buy again:
Reasons-
The car delivers what it is supposed to deliver.
I really like the ride quality.
I find the bodywork as flimsy or solid as any other modern car - I was horrified some years ago to find that some parts of my Jaguar were flimsy plastic - sign of the times I guess, with NCAP ratings cars must have a thin skin and solid core for safety reasons. At least they don't rust any more...
As for the interior - this is an utilitarian car - it is about what I expected.
Reasons-
The car delivers what it is supposed to deliver.
I really like the ride quality.
I find the bodywork as flimsy or solid as any other modern car - I was horrified some years ago to find that some parts of my Jaguar were flimsy plastic - sign of the times I guess, with NCAP ratings cars must have a thin skin and solid core for safety reasons. At least they don't rust any more...
As for the interior - this is an utilitarian car - it is about what I expected.
I wouldn't mind the body panels being paper thin if they were also paper cheap! The front wing on ours cost hundreds to replace despite the fact that it was apparently a case of undoing a few bolts and screwing the replacement on. I claimed for that against insurance, but if I go claiming for every minor dent, my premium will go through the roof. I suspect that our PHEV is going to look pretty battered by the time it is a few years old.
Grigou
Well-known member
I'am thinking to replace mine by the end of 2018, and normally it will be for another PHEV. I like driving in town in EV mode, and the consumption is not my first purpose.
Maybe a BMW 225 or X1, maybe the ASX successor (which will be bigger than the present one) or maybe another brand.
The next Outlander 4 will be too big for my little family (wife and me
)
Maybe a BMW 225 or X1, maybe the ASX successor (which will be bigger than the present one) or maybe another brand.
The next Outlander 4 will be too big for my little family (wife and me
)greendwarf
Well-known member
I agree broadly with jaapv but would add that air pollution is a real consideration for me in Sarf Lundun. I use very little petrol so would expect the engine to outlive me and £3k for a new battery in 10 years (£300 per year) seems reasonable. Whilst a smaller EV would be cheaper I still need the load capacity - try loading a washing machine (last 3 - 5 years) into the back of a Leaf :lol: and the writing is clearly on the wall for diesels in cities - assuming they don't get banned altogether.
Until the PHEV became available on the company list at the last minute I had been going round in circles looking at choices. We previously had a cleverly funded leasing scheme that spared us from company car tax but felt like a company car, they abandoned it for simple leasing.
Having been 'out the loop' for a few year on leasing I was horrified at the tax quotes of even quite humble cars and remaining in an SUV of some sort was going to burn my wallet badly.
I agree the advantages are being eroded a lot, but someone I know recently getting a basic Tourag put it into perspective for me as its undoubtedly of a far better quality feel but size and ability wise there is not so much difference really, except he will pay £425 a month more than me just in pure tax, and pay a more expensive lease on top. I have a long list of things 6 to 7 thousand pounds a year is needed for in my life.
Having been 'out the loop' for a few year on leasing I was horrified at the tax quotes of even quite humble cars and remaining in an SUV of some sort was going to burn my wallet badly.
I agree the advantages are being eroded a lot, but someone I know recently getting a basic Tourag put it into perspective for me as its undoubtedly of a far better quality feel but size and ability wise there is not so much difference really, except he will pay £425 a month more than me just in pure tax, and pay a more expensive lease on top. I have a long list of things 6 to 7 thousand pounds a year is needed for in my life.
BobEngineer said:
It is horrifyingly expensive, isn't it? Prior to the PHEV, I had been on a cash car allowance for many years - it was only the low BIK that tempted me to take the car directly. In a year or two, we will sell the car to ourselves at the highest level of depreciation we can get away with and go back to the cash allowance. But that is only really viable because we do virtually no business mileage - I don't think I claimed for any business miles last year. If we were doing significant business miles, the answers could be very different.
I wouldn't, but not for the reasons above.
My PHEV was meant to be a compromise until a "real" electric car was available. In two months of ownership, I've only used 35 litres of petrol, and that included two long trips up the coast for holidays over Christmas. Without those, my electric use has been about 98%. Not bad for a car that realistically only gets a 45km range, less using air conditioning in punishing 35+*C Australian temps.
The SUV weighs a few kilograms less than my previous sedan built in 2006, so I can't complain that panels are thin and light.
I'm very happy with the driver/passenger experience, especially since my last car being 9 years old was getting increasing road and exhaust noise.
I feel the interior is cheap and in a couple years will be squeaky and rattly, but I am hoping to only keep it for 3-4 years, so it's more tolerated and accepted than ignored or liked.
Overall, I would have rather paid 10-20k more for a better built car, but this car was always a compromise, and I still feel it was a very good compromise.
Hopefully in 2020, I'll be posting my last post, raving about the new Mitsubishi all electric SUV with 200km+ range.
My PHEV was meant to be a compromise until a "real" electric car was available. In two months of ownership, I've only used 35 litres of petrol, and that included two long trips up the coast for holidays over Christmas. Without those, my electric use has been about 98%. Not bad for a car that realistically only gets a 45km range, less using air conditioning in punishing 35+*C Australian temps.
The SUV weighs a few kilograms less than my previous sedan built in 2006, so I can't complain that panels are thin and light.
I'm very happy with the driver/passenger experience, especially since my last car being 9 years old was getting increasing road and exhaust noise.
I feel the interior is cheap and in a couple years will be squeaky and rattly, but I am hoping to only keep it for 3-4 years, so it's more tolerated and accepted than ignored or liked.
Overall, I would have rather paid 10-20k more for a better built car, but this car was always a compromise, and I still feel it was a very good compromise.
Hopefully in 2020, I'll be posting my last post, raving about the new Mitsubishi all electric SUV with 200km+ range.
Had mine for just 2 months and so far very happy, it does exactly what I bought it for. Most use is very short runs around nearby suburbs and it does that very well without using any fuel or very little. Had a small diesel before and it rarely warmed up on those runs, so the PHEV is a much better choice.
Plus it can do the occasional longer run easily. We have another big 4WD for the serious towing and travel stuff.
So, yes, would buy again at this stage but probably not for 50 grand.
I am very impressed with the car otherwise. It really is an engineering masterpiece as far as the drivetrain and software to make it all work goes!
Plus it can do the occasional longer run easily. We have another big 4WD for the serious towing and travel stuff.
So, yes, would buy again at this stage but probably not for 50 grand.
I am very impressed with the car otherwise. It really is an engineering masterpiece as far as the drivetrain and software to make it all work goes!
HHL said:
Well said! Greatly enjoying ours...when I can get my wife out of it!
I'm very impressed too but have concerns about its trade-in value, mainly with respect to battery age/remaining life/remaining warranty, etc, and the cost of the next one.
Our plan is to keep this one until 3/4 years old and sell before the 5 year warranty gets too short to sell easily. Maybe an ASX PHEV or other similar smaller (than Outlander) car next time.
No, I wouldn't have another but I had never planned on another - this was always my gateway for 3 years until pure EV range and charging infrastructure (hopefully) improves so I go for pure EV.
There's very few things I don't like on the PHEV, that being said. The main one is, as expected, the limited range, but also some of the logic - I find it intensely annoying when the ICE fires up on my 5 mile commute despite almost full SOC, just because I didn't bump the heater up in small enough increments. Why isn't the ECO mode the standard when you start it up? Why isn't the 'Charge' button a 'disable ICE' button?
For right now though, it's absolutely the right choice for me, as a company car driver. It will get less attractive in 2017 and 2018, of course, as the BIK changes. My other option was an i3, which I was sorely tempted with, but the REX seemed a compromise which didn't make sense for my use (fuel tank too small to be anything than a 'get me home') and the BEV range was unfortunately too limiting for my occasional use (my wife has a Zoe, so I can't even borrow that in an emergency for a longer trip).
There's very few things I don't like on the PHEV, that being said. The main one is, as expected, the limited range, but also some of the logic - I find it intensely annoying when the ICE fires up on my 5 mile commute despite almost full SOC, just because I didn't bump the heater up in small enough increments. Why isn't the ECO mode the standard when you start it up? Why isn't the 'Charge' button a 'disable ICE' button?
For right now though, it's absolutely the right choice for me, as a company car driver. It will get less attractive in 2017 and 2018, of course, as the BIK changes. My other option was an i3, which I was sorely tempted with, but the REX seemed a compromise which didn't make sense for my use (fuel tank too small to be anything than a 'get me home') and the BEV range was unfortunately too limiting for my occasional use (my wife has a Zoe, so I can't even borrow that in an emergency for a longer trip).
I seriously doubt that there will be any acceptable pure EV within that timescale - actually, I doubt there will be one within my remaining driving lifetime - which is optimistically 20 years. It will require battery and charging technology that does not exist even in research labs yet.
maby said:
Well, 'acceptable' is a bit of a subjective thing, isn't it. There's already an 'acceptable' pure EV which would suit my needs (couple hundred mile range, quick charging), I just don't have the money to spend on a Tesla.
Is it that outrageous to think we might be closer to that in the mass market in 3 years? Possibly.
I absolutely agree with you, TC1978. I'm very happy with my PHEV, but I'm planning on a Tesla Model E or possibly a second hand Model S when it comes to change, which will (hopefully) be in 2020, assuming Phoebe survives that long of course
TC1978 said:
The issue, as I see it, is less one of range and more a question of the time it takes to recharge. A couple of hundred miles range is just about adequate - but only if you can recharge in broadly the same time that it takes to fill the tank of a conventional car with petrol - and that will require a completely new battery technology. Even if you are prepared to stop for half an hour every couple of hundred miles, the logistical implications are horrendous for the large scale adoption of EVs. A motorway service area can refuel half a dozen cars or more per pump in the time that it would take a Tesla with current technology to recharge - and the Tesla (which currently has the best range of any EV) will need to recharge almost twice as often as the petrol cars need to refill. We would need to more than double the forecourt capacity of refuelling stations and would probably have to embark on a major cable laying programme too - the drain on the grid to simultaneously recharge a couple of dozen cars on rapid chargers will almost certainly exceed the distribution capacity to most current petrol stations.
I suppose it very much depends on your rationale for getting a PHEV and the likely impact of the BIK and OLEV amendments. If the main reason was the tax incentives etc, then clearly these forthcoming changes are likely make a difference, but that may not be an issue for others. While mine is a company car, I own the company, but above all I do fairly frequent short trips on a daily basis and only the very occasional longer trips, so I get the very most out of the EV mode.
In 4 months it has done 3000 miles, including one round trip of 480 miles which used about 60 litres of petrol and aside from that trip, has used only around another 100 litres or so. The cost of charging has been a little higher in recent weeks due to the cold and wet weather, but charging costs since new are around £125, which with the petrol costs to date at an average over the period of say £1.05/litre means I have covered 3000 miles for less than £300. Compared to my previous 9 year old SAAB turbo estate which, due to its age, was only managing 225 miles per 60 litre tank-full, the same milage at £1.05/litre would have cost £840 in petrol!!!! So a whopping saving of over £1500pa in running costs, notwithstanding the BIK, the company tax breaks and the vehicle tax!
Will I get another one at the end of this lease in Sept 2018? That depends on what is available - I'd have a Tesla is I could afford it, I'd have a SAAB EV if the concept becomes a reality. Who can say what there might be out there by then, but for now the PHEV is saving me significant sums, it drives well, it fulfils our family (and dogs) needs and 4 months in, I have no regrets.
In 4 months it has done 3000 miles, including one round trip of 480 miles which used about 60 litres of petrol and aside from that trip, has used only around another 100 litres or so. The cost of charging has been a little higher in recent weeks due to the cold and wet weather, but charging costs since new are around £125, which with the petrol costs to date at an average over the period of say £1.05/litre means I have covered 3000 miles for less than £300. Compared to my previous 9 year old SAAB turbo estate which, due to its age, was only managing 225 miles per 60 litre tank-full, the same milage at £1.05/litre would have cost £840 in petrol!!!! So a whopping saving of over £1500pa in running costs, notwithstanding the BIK, the company tax breaks and the vehicle tax!
Will I get another one at the end of this lease in Sept 2018? That depends on what is available - I'd have a Tesla is I could afford it, I'd have a SAAB EV if the concept becomes a reality. Who can say what there might be out there by then, but for now the PHEV is saving me significant sums, it drives well, it fulfils our family (and dogs) needs and 4 months in, I have no regrets.
lg1726 said:
The deciding factor is pattern of usage. For us, no hybrid is going to be cheaper to run or more ecological than a modern petrol vehicle of comparable size and pure EVs are woefully inadequate. The incentive is the tax treatment and that is being eroded. I doubt that the PHEV will see me out, so I think it will be back to a conventional petrol vehicle in eight to ten years.
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